Bonding can take place in so many different ways, it can be immediate, and it can be 
in the third trimester for many parents. It can be the first time you hold them, lay 
eyes on them, or it can take a little bit longer and maybe need some facilitation of 
things like massage and, and some help from experts. Your mental health plays such 
a big part of it as wellÑKirsty
Intro
Kirsty is a physiotherapist who works with neonates and she's mum to two-week-old 
Matthew. She shares how her insights into neonates have impacted how she cares for 
her newborn. We talk about bonding and attachment and how falling in love happens 
very differently for everyone. We go on to explore kangaroo mother care or skin to skin. 
The how, when, and why. Of course, we also talk about how to cope with toddlersÕ 
demands and jealousy when the new baby arrives. So stay tuned as we explore the life 
of a mum of three through the eyes of Kirsty. 

Welcome to Sense by Meg Faure the podcast that's brought to you by Parent Sense, the 
app that takes the guesswork out of parenting. If you're a new parent, then you are in 
good company. Your host Meg Faure is a well-known OTÑInfant Specialist and the 
author of eight parenting books. Each week, we're going to spend time with new mums 
and dads, just like you to chat about the week's wins, the challenges, and the questions 
of the moment. Subscribe to the podcast, download the Parent Sense App and catch 
Meg here every week to make the most of that first year of your little one's life. And 
now meet your host. 


Meg: Hello, mums and dads. It is so good to have you back again. I am loving our 
weekly chats with real moms, exploring the weekly highs and lows of parenthood. And 
as you know, each week, I'm joined by a parent. And I share my knowledge, my years 
of experience as an occupational therapist, and the author of eight books. And I apply 
the sense that I've learned to what can otherwise be a tricky time in life. 
And so this week weÕre joined by Kirsty who is a mom to three little ones. So she has 
two-year-old twins, Charlie and Adam. And then she's got two week old, little 
Matthew, who by the way, for this entire podcast is lying in her arms. And you'll hear 
his little grunts and groans as we go through. But Kirsty is also a colleague from Cape 
Town. She's a physiotherapist who is specialized in pediatrics and she and  I have 
worked together with each other over many years with little ones. I would refer all of 
the developmental challenging babies to her, and she would refer the little ones with 
sleep problems and feeding problems to me. And more recently she's become very 
specialized in prem-babies. So she works in a Neonatal ICU at Mirabel Maternity 
Hospital in Cape Town where she uses sensory developmental care to look after these 
little ones. She is an incredible physiotherapist. And now an experienced mom with 
three little ones. 
Welcome Kirsty, and tell us a little bit more about your family and about your journey 
as you embark on the newborn journey for the second time. 

Kirsty: Hi Meg, thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here. So yes, I had twins two 
years ago and it was quite a whirlwind of an experience. And when we decided to have 
a third, I was keen on making the journey a different one. So I wanted to focus on 
bonding with my boy in the first week of getting to know him. 
Meg: Yeah. Did you find bonding in the first with the first little ones tough or tricky? I 
mean, twins is quite a thing, isn't it? 

Kirsty: Yeah. So twins in itself is a thing. And my journey was forged with challenges, 
unfortunately. So I had a very anxious pregnancy the first time around. And then when 
the baby came along, we had to bring them into the world a little bit earlier than 
expected. I had a bit of pre-eclampsia. 
Meg: So how far along were you?
Kirsty: I was 35 weeks. 
Meg: Okay. 
Kirsty: Which is still pretty good for twins. 
Meg: Yeah. Yeah. 
Kirsty: But it was still a challenge to bring forward my plan date at the last minute, 

Meg: For sure. And I think it's important for people to know the context in which 
maybe some of that anxiety came about. And that is that you and I have worked 
together because you're a physiotherapist. And I sometimes feel like that kind of 
background of knowledge maybe can increase the anxiety because you just know how 
vital that pregnancy and that birth is. 

Kirsty: Yes. And I work in the neonatal unit of the Moriah Maternity and in the high-
risk clinic there. And in my private practice too, I see a lot of babies that have had 
challenges. So perhaps my perception of the reality is a bit skewed. So I think that was 
one of the reasons I was so anxious in the pregnancy. I'm an older mom. I was 40 at the 
time, I had multiple pregnancies, so twins, Stephanie Morris factors. And I was just 
surprised at the emotional challenges I faced during the pregnancy in particular. 

Meg: Yeah. And I think that's common for so many moms that, you know, I mean, I 
know that you and I both had that background of knowledge, which does make you 
maybe slightly more anxious. But for lot of moms, I mean, pregnancy, we know that it's 
important and we have these niggles and we don't know if that means that something's 
going to go wrong. And of course, pre-eclampsia in itself is something very scary to go 
through. 
Kirsty: Yeah. So then it came time for the babies to be born and they arrived in the 
world a little bit of a frenzy to get dad here from Mauritius. He was living in Kenya at 
the time and there was phone calls at all hours and flags from different places and 
managed to get him in town just in the nick of time. To be wheeled into theater on a 
Monday morning. And unfortunately, my condition wasn't great during, and after the 
surgery. And as a result, I had an extended stay in the hospital with a couple of other 
operations and a few other physical challenges myself. And I was just very fortunate 
that the boys were allowed to, they were moved into the NICU and they were allowed 
to stay there until I was physically fit to look after them. But that was about 23 nights. 
So it was a long journey to get them into my arms. 

Meg: Oh my word, Kirsty. I didn't realize that. So when you say they were in the Neo 
ICU and, and for those in the UK, they call it the SCABU, you know, different names. 
What was the reason that they were, I mean, they were born five weeks early, did they 
need to be in the Neonatal ICU, or was it because you were being hospitalized that they 
were there? 

Kirsty: So the one little baby, the firstborn, Charlie, he was grunting a tiny bit. And so 
the doctor recommended that he move across to NICU and they generally don't split 
twins. 
Meg: Okay. 
Kirsty: So they just took Adam along with. And at that point, my blood pressure was 
well over 200 over 200. And I was in quite a critical condition and just getting them 
anywhere safe was my priority. So I was happy to consent for them to move the boys 
ASAP. 

Meg: Your condition, had it progressed into help syndrome because that sounds quite 
serious. 
Kirsty: It was serious. I went into major pre-eclampsia on the table, which is very 
unusual. And, you know, I was in the hands of a [inaudible 07:13] and they were just 
incredible. My doctor was incredible and so, yeah, so that happened. And then, it was a 
cascade of events that led to a bleed and I had a big bleed and intra-abdominal bleed. 
And then I had to have further surgery to remove that the next day. And then I had to 
have blood transfusions, but that caused anaphylaxis. So that caused further days in the 
ICU. 

Meg: Oh my, goodness me, a proper cascade. 

Kirsty: A proper cascade. And just what a pity. It was just a pity, it was just bad luck.

Meg: So for 23 days, how much of that time could you, I mean, you clearly couldn't 
breastfeed, but how much of that time could they be with you and how much, how 
much contact did you have with them? And do you feel like that was disruptive?

Kirsty: So as an anti-personality that, you know, I self-mobilize myself. I think it was on 
the second night after my second surgery and found myself walking through, into the 
NICU in the dark and saying, I need to hold my baby. Of course, 

Meg: Of course, of course. 

Kirsty: So I think I held one of them, but I was quite drugged up, so it was all a bit of a 
haze, I held one of them that day. And the other one, I only held again on the third day.
Meg: Okay. 
Kirsty: So they were bound to my chest and then they were whisked away. And then it 
was a few days till I got to hold them. And then after that, I made sure I went through 
whenever I could. I tried to feed them, care and see them, sit with them on my chest and 
then [inaudible 08:42] and just like our moms do at Mobria, I wanted to spend as much 
time with them as possible, but I had to balance that with looking after myself and 
getting rest and recovering my health as well. And stupidly I was having lots of 
visitors, and in retrospect, I shouldn't have had so many visitors. I should have just 
knuckled down. And now in COVID when little Matthew was born, we aren't allowed 
visitors in hospitals and I really can suggest that moms consider that as a good 
alternative and just be present and just be with your little baby. So Matthew'sÑ. 

Meg: Matthew's utterly gorgeous. He's lying in your arms, your little two-week-old. I 
mean, maybe you could just talk a little bit about, I'm sure you've reflected on the 
difference in your bonding journey, you know, having been an ill mum the first time 
around and having had a more typical kind of journey this to time round, has it been 
very different? 

Kirsty: Absolutely. I went in with the intention to bond because with the twins, with all 
of those changes, I felt like they were these little aliens that didn't belong to me. And it 
was quite sad for me to feel that. And so my intention this time was to maybe have the 
experience of lots of other moms are blessed with. And I took him into my room as soon 
as he was born, and I was able to, yeah, he wheeled three with me now that I remember 
it. And he stayed on my chest in KMC for about four days. I just kept him with me 

Meg: And how was that? WeÕre going to come back to KMC just now because I really 
want to go and do a deep dive into that. But before we do, have you felt a difference? 
Do you feel like you've had a different journey to falling in love this time around? 

Kirsty: Absolutely. Absolutely. And my knowledge before knows that every mom is 
different and every journey is different and bonding can take place in so many different 
ways. It could be immediate, it could be in the third trimester for many parents. It can 
be the first time you hold them, lay eyes on them, or it can take a little bit longer and 
maybe need some facilitation of things like massage and some help from experts. Your 
mental health plays such a big part of it as well. Yeah. So for him, I just said, I'm going 
to wear him and stare at him for the first few days. 

Meg: I love that. Wear and stare 
Kirsty: Wear and stare.
Meg: I love it. So I think Kirsty, it's so important to just bring that up because I think 
that there's a lot of guilt and particularly for new moms whoÕre listening to this who 
maybe got a three-month-old where they don't feel that they've bonded properly or 
they just don't have those feelings. And I just want to go back to what you said there, 
the pictures that are portrayed in marketing ads and in and on social media are that you 
fall in love, love at first sight as you see your baby, but it isn't true. And for a percentage 
of moms and I was one of those moms, you fall in love, right, from the get-go, because 
as soon as you knew youÕre pregnant, as soon as you feel those movements, as you see 
those ultrasound scans, you're just in love from day one, you're utterly besotted and 
that's your journey. 
And then you get other moms who don't attach all in pregnancy, particularly moms 
who've gone through fertility treatments or have lost a baby because, or maybe for 
those moms whoÕre career moms, and this wasn't a planned baby. And so for those 
moms, they don't attach in pregnancy. And then sometimes they look back afterward 
and have this guilt around not having fallen in love and not having wanted this baby, 
having maybe some mixed emotions around being pregnant. And then you get the 
bunch of moms who fall in love, love at first sight, but you do get moms. And I loved 
what you said about that. You know, there're so many factors that can impact on that. 
There is, is this a wanted baby? Did your birth go according to plan? Do you have 
postnatal depression? All of these factors can play a part in not bonding in the first 
three months. Well, maybe even the first six months. And what we know about the 
research is that babies are very resilient and so bonding as long as they get good care 
and fairly consistent care in the early days if you only really fall in love at nine months 
or six months, and that's the first time that you connect with your baby, it's okay. They 
can have a good and robust emotional span in the world. And I think it's just a very 
important thing because your journeys have been very different with your little ones. 

Kirsty: Yeah, absolutely. 

Meg: Yeah. Very interesting. I want to go back around to the Ôwear and stareÕ because I 
mean, you spoke about the word KMC and I think that's not necessarily something 
that's familiar for a lot of moms and youÕre referring to the wearing of your baby and 
you work as a physio in a Neonatal ICU. So do you want to just tell us a little bit about 
KMC, what it is and how beneficial it is? 

Kirsty: Absolutely. So hospital, where I'm employed, has a doctor called Neil Bergman 
who did some incredible research into the neurophysiology and the understanding of 
what they call Kangaroo Medicare can do for a child. The knowledge started when, I 
hope I get my story, right, but as far as I remember, there was a hospital in quite a rural 
area of Africa and they had a policy. 

Meg: I'll tell you where it was. It was in Bogota, Columbia. I'll let you in a little bit about 
the story. 
Kirsty: Yes.
Meg: No, it's a fascinating story. So in Bogota, Columbia, South America, they had a 
Neo ICU that didn't have incubators and they literally couldn't care for these babies. 
And so the babies would die. The prem-babies, I'm talking about the very prem-babies 
would be born and not be able to regulate their body temperature, their breathing, and 
so forth, and so they would die. And then there was a doctor who became very well 
known, he was the father of Kangaroo Mother Care. And he said you know what we're 
going to do is we're going to put these babies on their mum's chest naked because then 
the mum can just have that moment of closure before the baby dies. And this was the 
idea. It was let's put the baby on the mum's chest, the baby's going to die. 
But if they set that connection with the mom, the mom might have less, you know, 
depression or whatever it is after. And then what ended up happening was that these 
babies, particularly the older premies, so the babies who were maybe 34, 35 weeks, just 
didn't die. And so suddenly it became, right, we've got to research this because if these 
babies are not dying, what's the reason for that? 
And part of that is that the mother is just the most unbelievable incubator and Neil 
Bergman is incredible because in some ways he, I don't want to say he commercialized 
it, he kind of made it, he popularized it because he's such a brilliant speaker that when 
you hear him talk about Kangaroo Mother Care, KMC you start to realize just how vital 
this is. So that's actually where it started from. But please continue, because I know that 
you've heard this from the horse's mouth, from Neil's mouth. 

Kirsty: Probably preggy brain, forgot the real details. But never mind the feeling is that 
you put your baby's skin to skin and we do this with all our moms in the ICU, the 
sickest and the most compromised of babies, we get the moms to wear them for as long 
as they will during the day and your body by touching your baby's body, your skin to 
skin creates these incredible pathways through your neural systems, and it taps into 
your Amygdala, your emotional brain and you end up bonding. So you have an 
emotional connection with the baby and the baby has an emotional connection with 
you. It's your skin-to-skin contact, but also your system helps regulate the baby's needs. 
For example, a small baby who will have issues with regulating temperature, your body 
temperature will change according to what your baby needs as you wear your baby on 
your chest. And soÑ 

Meg: And thatÕs a really interesting fact. So, before you move on to the sensory part, 
just that physiological part, and many moms as they fall pregnant, look down at their 
chest or look at their chest in the mirror and they see all of these blue veins going down 
to their breasts. Now, I mean, that for me was one of my first signals every time that I 
was pregnant, as soon as I saw the blue veins, I thought, okay, I know what's happening 
here. And of course, it's important because we need to develop our breast tissue to be 
able to feed the baby. But what also happens is because we've got all of these veins, 
bringing blood to the area, those veins can dilate and bring more blood if you need to 
be warmer. And so your body knows the temperature of your baby. And as if your 
baby's a little cooler than you are, for instance, your body knows it needs to be warmed 
up. And so the blood floods to the area and literally mom's chest can change about four 
degrees to warm their babies up. 
Kirsty: Yeah. What about dad?
Meg: Dad's chest can't do that. But having said that, I mean dads can also KMC their 
little ones if moms cannot be there. 

Kirsty: Great. And then the other, so besides temperature, they can listen to your 
heartbeat, it's a very calming stimulation. It's also putting some pressure on their 
tummy, which is also very calming. Their midline, they often see snuggle their hands 
against you, so there's a nice, deep pressure. It feels like it's like a little womb. I had a 
specially made KMC top, which had a little slip where the baby slept in, and then I had 
a little wrap that went across each my body that a lady had made for our moms at 
Mobria, and I got one from her. And it is just so wonderful. 


Interlude
This episode is brought to you by Parent Sense your parenting app. As an avid user, I 
can safely say that Parent Sense is the all-in-one baby development app that helps 
moms and dads keep track of their baby's routines and really takes the guesswork out 
of parenting in the first year of a baby's life. 
Meg, tell us what makes Parents Sense so special. 
So, Parent Sense is my love child. I developed it because I felt that parents needed a 
little manual in their pockets. And that's what it is. It gives parents routines for their 
babyÕs day. TheyÕre flexible routines for sleep and for feeding, and then it also gives 
them a play activity for every single day, 365 for the first year of life, as well as 
recipes and meal plans. So it, unlike most other apps, it covers every aspect of early 
parenting.ÑMeg.  

There, you heard it straight from the expert, download the Parent Sense app now from 
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and take 50% off when you use the discount code parent pod at checkout. Take 
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Meg: So for moms who wanting to do this, and I mean, if you're pre-pregnant and 
you're listening to this, the principle that we always talk about is KMC your little one as 
much as possible in the early days, exactly as you've described. And how to do it is 
babies naked with a nappy on. And I like to put a little hat or a little beanie on their 
heads so that they don't lose heat through their heads. And then you put a covering and 
in your case, Kirsty you actually put a t-shirt or shirt on, but a mom can even just put a 
towel or a blanket over herself and her baby to keep them warm. And it is amazing. I 
think the research in it is so significant. It does help them to survive as I mentioned with 
the babies in Bogota, Columbia. It helps them to connect and helps moms to connect as 
well. It also increases the chance of breastfeeding because when your baby has quite 
unrestricted access to your breast, particularly in the early days, it's very good for milk 
stimulation. So it helps in that way. 
It helps with falling in love because when you've got the skin-to-skin touch, you've also 
got oxytocin, which is our falling-in-love hormone that gets released more. And so you, 
connect more and what's incredible with oxytocin is when you have more connection, 
your baby actually releases oxytocin as well. So you get this whole falling and love cycle 
that happens. They've also shown that babies gain weight better through being in KMC. 
So there's just a myriad of reasons why moms should be kangarooing their babies. And 
you obviously experienced that, you know, full-on with, with Matthew. Are you still, 
can seeing him at two weeks, or have you stopped now?  

Kirsty: I really am. And mostly because it keeps me hands-free. So in my particular 
setup,  he's super-secure where he is inside and I can walk around the house. I can put 
the laundry on, I can do all the jobs I need to do, and I can play and look after the twins. 
So 

Meg: So just to be clear, when you talk about doing all of that, so you, a mom could do 
all of that just in a normal carrier, but you're saying he's naked on your chest like that, 
or he is in a carrier. No, he's naked on your chest. 

Kirsty: No, he's naked on my chest. He wasn't, I didn't even put clothes on it till the 
fourth day. 
Meg: Yeah.
Kirsty: And now in the mornings I take his clothes off and generally pop him in there 
and he stays there until it's time to get dressed in case he's going to see somebody else. 

Meg: Well, you'd need to have a very special type of sling to do that.  For the other 
moms whoÕre listening, because it would have to be very secure. 
Kirsty: Yes. 
Meg: You know, and I mean, I can remember having a conversation with Moss 
Bergman who you spoke about earlier actually at our infant mental health group many 
years ago, where he, I mean, he's an extremist and of course, a very loud and vocal 
voice for, for KMC and rightly so because we need people to have a have strong voices. 
And he said to me in his, I think he's got a German accent on an Austrian accent, I donÕt 
know where it's from. But he said to me, you need to kangaroo for six weeks without 
stopping. And I said to him, ÒMoss life happens, you know, people are going to go to 
the shops. You can't kangaroo all day, every day.Ó 

Kirsty: But you can, you can. Yeah.  

Meg: Well, I think one of the things for moms is, if you can, that's absolutely incredible 
like you doing. For me, I did kangaroo and particularly my third one who was my 
Caesar baby, but I also then had a carrier that I would then whenever I was going out 
the shop, she would rather be in a carrier. And I think, you know, one of the messages 
that I've always tried to give to moms is put your babies in carriers rather than in 
prams, because when they're up against you, there are so many benefits, even if it's not 
naked in KMC, there's just so many benefits of wearing your baby. 

Kirsty: So, yeah, my first week was a few days in the hospital. I opted for an extra night 
just to get the rest I needed. And thank goodness I did because I arrived home to a sick 
nanny. 
Meg: Oh God. 
Kirsty: And had no help first week when I got home. So that was chaos, but also an 
adventure in itself, and we all just figured it out. 

Meg: How did you find that the boys responded to having a new baby and how were 
there things that you did that really worked well to help them adjust between, you 
know, kind of being, having all your focus and now having your focus on a newborn? 

Kirsty: Well, the fortunate thing is that the babies in the first two weeks, they sleep so 
much, they are pretty calm. I think it's only after two weeks that your digestion and all 
sorts of things start to wear their little heads. So, you know, Mattie sleeps quite a lot. So 
whenever I get the chance, I'm generally wearing Emmy's inside my top and then I 
don't have to pay much attention to him and I can give the boys as much attention as 
they need. 
Meg: Yeah.
Kirsty: The one, I think its personalities, the one baby, the one little boy Charlie likes to 
come and go gentle, gentle, and gently stroke his chest and then end with a little poke. 
Otherwise, he wiggles his toe slowly creeps his foot toe by toe, closer, closer to the baby, 
looking at me sideways, and then when he gets very close, he gives a little flick. So he 
knows he's being ignored. 

Meg: Yeah. That's so funny. And also a way that they can get attention from you as 
well.
Kirsty: Attention from me. 
Meg: Because you'll immediately respond then. 

Kirsty: And I'm pretty calm. I just go be gentle with the baby. We are nice with the 
baby. We don't poke the baby. We don't kick the baby. And then I bring them in for a 
hug or a kiss or a whenever I see them trying to create a reaction with the baby. I give 
them an extra big, a deep squeeze, and a bit of attention. 

Meg: I love that. So I think that's so important. You know, I think when we talk about 
the attention, that's probably what they're looking for and you've got to find ways to do 
that positively rather than, because if you don't do that, then they'll find ways to seek 
the attention. And then it'll be negative attention. A couple of the tips that I often tell 
mums to do, and particularly as he gets old, and one of the things you said that's so true 
is that often toddlers are completely oblivious for the first few weeks, but when 
Matthew starts smiling and he gets cuter or crying more or demanding more, you 
know, then you know, the rivalry or the jealousy well is more likely to raise its head. 
But one of the things that I always did with my little ones was, I had a box of books next 
to where I would feed because breastfeeding is, I mean, it's half of your day, you know, 
it's all the time. But the newborn, Matthew doesn't need anything more than just your 
breast.  So I would sit down with a box of books next to me and I would say, oh, it's 
storytime now. So it's not feeding time. You know, it's storytime now, and I'll keep 
Matthew I'll occupy by feeding him so that they don't think that this is Matthew's feed 
time, therefore they get a story. They think this is our storytime and by the way, 
Matthew will be kept quiet on the breast, you know, type thing. So it's all about them. 
Kirsty: That's so clever. 
Meg: And then having a box of books wherever you are, I think that's really, really 
important. And itÕs great for Matthew's brain as well because when newborns hear their 
mum talking and reading during breastfeeding for those moms who don't have older 
siblings, you know, older toddlers, they can do that anyway, when they hear you 
talking, they're learning and wiring the language part of their brain anyway. So yeah, it 
is a good thing. 

Kirsty: Great, thanks. Great job. 

Meg: Yeah. So I think we've only really got another minute or two and Kirsty I'd love to 
keep up our through the course of the year because you have so many fabulous insights 
because of what you do.  Is there any milestone, if you think back to the last two weeks, 
he's only two weeks old, is there any milestone that you think that you've noticed and 
gone, ÒOh my gosh, that's so magical.Ó I wonder if all mums have noticed that, you 
know, being that you have the insiderÕs of being a developmental physio. 

Kirsty: There's nothing that surprise me at the moment, but what I will say is a 
developmental milestone. I've been working on his visual tracking and so working on 
getting his eye contact, looking at me, and then following me from side to side. Yeah, so 
I use my face. I come in not too close, not too far, just right. So from my nose to my 
nipple is kind of the distance that his eyes are focusing at this age. And every week his 
eyes will learn to focus a bit more, a bit further, a bit clearer. So keeping my distance to 
about 20 centimeters away from him and I just go from side to side and I allow his eyes 
to follow me and slowly I'm going to start introducing up and down as well. So a visual 
tracking, visual regard. 
Meg: I love that. 
Kirsty: I think that's a really nice thing to work on.  

Meg: Yeah. That's lovely. So a couple of things around that, so we know that babies can 
focus, as you said, exactly 23 centimeters or 20 centimeters, which is actually an 
absolute miracle because they're perfectly wired for engagement when they're lying at 
your breast. And so if a mom does hold their baby that distance it's really perfect 
visually. The other thing I always say to moms is when you're doing those exercises, 
which develop the extraocular muscles and the intraocular muscles. So the intraocular 
muscles are responsible for focus. So if you move slightly, further away and slightly 
close, so that's the intraocular muscles having to change or hone their strength or their 
accuracy. And then your extraocular muscles are the ones that move you left to right, 
and up and down. So those are the type of things that moms should do. 

But to do that, that's a fine motor skill. Even though it's an eye skill, that's a very high 
level of coordination for a two-week-old baby. And if he's bothered by his movements 
of his body, his gross motor movements, if he doesn't have stability of his neck muscles 
and of his head, he's not going to be able to use those fine motor muscles. And so I 
always say to moms, make sure theyÕre very heavily supported and that there's no other 
movement in their body while they do that. Shoulders leaning slightly forward, head 
supported fully, and then they will actually be able to kind of really hone those intra 
and extraocular muscles. So that's a great piece of advice for the two weeks. Kirsty, 
thank you.  

Kirsty: Yes. Actually, wrap him up. I waddle him in those periods.
Meg: Brilliant.
Kirsty: I cup him against my legs brilliant with my knees up in the bed, and I hold his 
hands to his tummy and his feet are a little in, so he's in a little nest. 
Meg: I love it. 
Kirsty: And then I use my face from side to side. Yeah, exactly. 
Meg: ThatÕs brilliant. That's 

Kirsty: And thatÕs great. 
Meg: Well, that is such a fabulous piece of advice for moms, a little titbit that you can all 
do with your not-to-two-week-old baby, developing those eye muscles. And then of 
course, as a byproduct, you also developing engagement and, and so on, which is 
stunning. So Kirsty, thank you so much. And Matthew, thank you for joining us. 
Matthew. He's been so good. Just a couple of little grunts. He's sleeping so beautifully. 

Kirsty: I'm lucky. 

Meg: Yeah. Well enjoy him, Kirsty and we will have you back on again. It's stunning to 
talk to you. Awesome. 

Kirsty: Awesome, I really enjoyed it too. Thank you for having me. 
Meg: Thank you very much. All right. 

Outro
Thanks to everyone who joined us. We will see you the same time next week until then 
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