(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.)

[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 0:46)
As most of you seasoned listeners will know, we sometimes have experts who join me to talk about very specific and niche parenting topics like weaning or speech or anything in between. And then we also have episodes where we actually track a mom. And actually, interestingly, many of you have said those are your favourite episodes because they really resonate.

A real mom going through real life stuff with her questions is just what you want to hear about. And what's interesting is that very often, the questions a mom has for a specific stage resonate very deeply with you, because babies tend to go through the same things at the same ages. So your questions are likely to be the same.

So today we have an episode just like that. And we have a new guest on with us today. We have not spoken with her before.

Her name is Nina Clark.

[Speaker 3] (0:47 - 1:28)
Welcome to Sense by Meg Fora, the podcast that's brought to you by ParentSense, the app that takes guesswork out of parenting. If you're a new parent, then you are in good company. Your host Meg Fora is a well known OT, infant specialist, and the author of eight parenting books.

Each week, we're going to spend time with new moms and dads just like you to chat about the week's wins, the challenges and the questions of the moment. Subscribe to the podcast, download the ParentSense app and Catchmaker every week to make the most of that first year of your little one's life. And now, meet your host.

[Speaker 2] (1:32 - 1:57)
Welcome back, moms and dads. This is Sense by Meg Fora and I'm your host Meg Fora. It is lovely to have you join us today.

And a very warm welcome to you, Nina. Thank you, Meg. Thank you so much for having me.

Lovely to have you join us. So, Nina, for me and for the audience, tell us a little bit about you, your family, and how many kitties you've got and exactly where you are in your stage of parenting.

[Speaker 1] (1:57 - 2:50)
Sure. Well, Meg, just before I do that, I just wanted to sort of reiterate the introduction that you had. And I did mention this to you when we were chatting before, that these really were the episodes that I also probably loved the most.

So, with my first spawn, I was tracking the story of Cass and Max, and they were going through exactly the same stages that I was going through with my little boy, Max. And it was just so comforting to be able to listen to this episode once a week, go for a long stroll with this new baby that I had no idea what to do with, and just to be able to sort of walk this journey with all three of you and to just sort of, you know, figure out whether we're on track or not. And so, yeah, I can confirm that it is very, a very handy series to have.

So, thank you for that.

[Speaker 2] (2:50 - 2:58)
Did you find that a lot of what Cass went through with Max was very similar to what you were going through with your Max at each edge and stage? Absolutely.

[Speaker 1] (2:58 - 3:11)
It is so crazy to me how every kid is so different, yet they're all so similar. So, yeah, no, I remember making many, many mental notes as I walked and set it all up.

[Speaker 2] (3:11 - 3:16)
That's amazing. So, that tells us that your first born Max is probably around about two or three years old.

[Speaker 1] (3:17 - 3:56)
He is, exactly. So, my little Max is turning three in January. So, he was born in London, which is where we lived for the better part of nine years.

And then as a family, we decided to move back to Cape Town, South Africa at the start of this year, a little bit for my hubby's work. He started a business, which is South African based, but then also just to have a whole bunch of family around and lots more support. We were sort of hoping to extend the family at that point.

So, I think we sort of just decided, let's head back to fairer shores where lots of people are around to support as the family grows.

[Speaker 2] (3:56 - 4:49)
That's amazing. And we're going to definitely track that, the differences between bringing up little ones in the UK and South Africa, because a lot of the questions that moms have, I mean, I often am contacted by moms who are emigrating from South Africa and say, you know, how do I do this with a little one? And likewise, many people, many of our South African audience are actually living overseas and already experiencing that.

So, I'm excited to do that. And then before we get onto your second born, which I really do want to, I do want to mention, you mentioned that your husband's business is moving back to South Africa. And I wanted to mention for people who don't know who you are, you have a brand called Night Tyre and I absolutely love your pyjamas.

And so, moms, if you want to know who Nina is, you can go and actually have a look for her on Instagram and also have a look for Night Tyre with, it's got one T in the middle because they're absolutely gorgeous pyjamas and sleepwear. So, congrats on that. You're a working mom as well.

[Speaker 1] (4:50 - 5:34)
I mean, thank you. Thanks for the pun. I really appreciate that.

Yeah, no, exactly. So, Night Tyre is very much my first baby and one that I started about seven years ago. It's still running, still in the UK, even though I am trying to do everything from here, which is proving interesting, juggling that as well as motherhood and now two times motherhood.

But it's something that I, before we moved here, thought, should I potentially just put it on ice or, you know, completely move away from it so that we can just start afresh here? But it's, I think, you know, when it's your firstborn, in so many ways, it's very hard to let go. So, yeah, we are still plodding on and loving it.

[Speaker 2] (5:35 - 5:42)
Okay, excellent. Great. So, you moved back to South Africa, thinking about starting a new life in your family and that did transpire.

[Speaker 1] (5:42 - 6:20)
Yeah, no. So, the falling pregnant with baby tiny, which is what we are calling our second born for now, because we are, I think, at a bit of an analysis paralysis stage at the moment. So, almost two weeks in and we still don't have a name, which very strangely, my hubby and I are not fussed about at all.

It's the surrounding family and friends who are getting quite edgy about the situation. So, we've given ourselves the deadline of next Wednesday, which is when we need to get to home affairs to solidify the name.

[Speaker 2] (6:20 - 6:35)
It's super interesting because, I don't know if you know this, but it's one of the most googled topics on Google, obviously, is what to call a baby and baby names. It's fascinating. I mean, not to tell us what the names are that are the options, but what sort of criteria are you thinking about?

[Speaker 1] (6:37 - 10:01)
So, I find boys' names so hard because it feels like it's either very sort of run-of-the-mill, stock standard names, you know, well, I mean, like James, I don't want to throw names under the bus here, but you know, Michael, Matthew, da-da-da, those kinds of names, or you can go pretty off there. So, we're finding it difficult to come across names that are still quite special, but not like, you know, Apple or Northall. So, I think that's probably the base.

And then, you know, everything from the combinations of, you know, are there any like random nicknames that they can be given? Do the initials match up? What are some of the other ones?

And then I think also just, you know, the meaning behind the name, I really think that's quite important. So, there's a lot of research that's going into that. But yeah, I think we've landed on some solid options and, yeah, we won't keep people in suspense for too long.

But what I was saying was, yeah, the falling pregnant with baby Tiny was actually so much faster, well, insanely fast in comparison to our first little one, Max, who was, it was about a three-year journey to fall pregnant with him. And interestingly, we were actually just about to press play on IVF to make him in the UK. And that very same month, we actually fell pregnant naturally.

So, it was, yeah, it was the much sort of longed for thing that happened, whereas with Tiny, it was the complete opposite. We were taken so by surprise because we literally just moved here in January, I fell pregnant and, you know, it was sort of the thank you, ma'am situation, which I cannot complain about because after, you know, having struggled for so long with Max, it is obviously such a blessing. But I think I was, it took me a very long time to sort of come to terms with the fact that this was actually happening, bizarrely.

And I felt so guilty about that because, of course, you know, so many women struggle and it is such a blessing. But I almost had to very much mourn the fact that we were now moving away from this very special time that I'd had with Max, which is still something that I'm trying to process. And then, you know, for this totally new status quo to come into effect.

Max and I were, I mean, we were together 24-7 in London because we didn't have help. He did a little bit of nursery here and there for the last couple of months, but otherwise it was very much, you know, all just my hands on deck kind of a thing while my husband was building his business. And so we built such a strong bond.

I breastfed him for almost the whole two years. So there was a lot of like physical connection for us as well. And so, yeah, just for me to sort of have to move on from that setup was quite hard to mentally, you know, work through when we found out that it was happening.

[Speaker 2] (10:01 - 11:25)
And, you know, it's such an interesting thing, because I don't think in all the 150 episodes that I've done of this, have we ever really touched on that, that feeling of loss, actually, of that relationship that was so exclusive for so long. And I can absolutely remember that with James. He was my firstborn.

And knowing just before Alex came, we didn't know the date she was going to come because we didn't induce and we didn't seize her. So, you know, she came when she was ready. But knowing in the weeks leading up to it, that, you know, this was the end of that one-on-one.

And there was a loss, you know, and it actually, when I look back, in some ways, I had a lot of guilt around what I expected of him after she was born. You know, almost overnight, he was expected to grow up and to be less of a hassle and do more independently. I mean, it sounds terrible as I say it, but it was, so there was a real loss of that firstborn child relationship.

And I am a firstborn and I often reflect on my relationship with my sister, which is not as close as I would love it to be. And I wonder if I actually had some resentment towards her because I had had this like super exclusive relationship with my mum and now I had to share her. And so I wonder if it is like that for firstborns and certainly it is what we project in that relationship, isn't it?

Absolutely.

[Speaker 1] (11:26 - 12:51)
And I think maybe in the, I wouldn't say olden days, but I think it's probably so recent that so much more research has been done on how to handle that transition properly. You know, I don't think in our generation, when we were growing up, there was as much information available on that. But nowadays, obviously, there's so much that you can do to make that transition easier.

And I have been trying to be so mindful of that with Max, you know, everything from the little introduction to the new baby in the hospital, don't hold the baby, you know, don't sort of have that first view of you with a new child, be like what the firstborn sees, all the way through to make sure that you are still spending lots of quality time one-on-one with your toddler whenever you can, because they're the ones who are going to remember it, whereas your little baby, you know, absolutely attend to their needs.

But, you know, there's a lot more like, you know, holding by granny and grandpa that can happen there, or, you know, bring the baby with, put it in a little carrier, but just make sure that you are still hanging with your kids and making sure that like, they feel seen. And then other things about like getting them to help out and making sure that they just feel included in activities that you're doing with your second born. All of those little bits, I'm really trying to incorporate.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (12:51 - 13:45)
So a couple of nice ones that I used, one was I always had a box of books next to me while I was breastfeeding because breastfeeding is the most, it's a very intimate experience between a mom and a baby. And it's quite exclusive because nobody else, you can't do anything else. You can't run after your toddler.

I know my mom tells a story of how I used to take down my nappy and make a poo on the floor in front of her whenever she started to breastfeed. And I'm quite sure that it was me going, no, actually you need to come to me. And when you're breastfeeding, you can do nothing about it.

So, you know, I think, so I think what is a great idea is to have a box of books next to you so that, you know, you would actually be able to read to him and almost, it becomes not, I'm going to feed the baby now, but we're going to do story time now. And it just happens to be that the baby's being kept occupied feeding while it's your story time. That was the one good tip I had.

And then the other one was, did you get a doll for Max as he got his own baby?

[Speaker 3] (13:46 - 14:24)
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[Speaker 2] (14:26 - 14:30)
And then the other one was, did you get a doll for Max as he got his own baby?

[Speaker 1] (14:31 - 14:56)
We did. We did. Yes.

He actually hasn't played with it much. So I think maybe as we start, I don't know, I mean, it's in like a little dolly pram and everything. My dad made it from scratch.

It's so sweet. But maybe as we start like actually going out and, you know, pushing the pram along and doing proper activities with the baby, that's not just him lying around all over the place, then maybe he'll start copying that.

[Speaker 2] (14:56 - 15:42)
Yeah. Excellent. And then the last thing that I once read, and it is definitely true, is that the more involved a father is or the other partner is, the better it is for sibling rivalry and for the firstborn.

Because effectively, you know, you need to focus in on the kind of fundamentals of early mothering, which is taking care of yourself, maintaining your breast milk supply, and falling in love with baby number two. And so to have another set of hands who makes it feel like it's, Max is not neglected. He's, somebody's taking care of him.

And the research shows that very involved fathers in particular are very protective against sibling rivalry, which I also think is really interesting.

[Speaker 1] (15:43 - 16:39)
What would you say to that, though, when there is still a very clear parent preference? Because Pete, my husband, is so keen to get involved. And he is, I mean, he works from home, he's available.

And, you know, when they do finally get time together, they play so well and all of that. But I think because of my history with Max, like there is still just such a very clear preference, and especially when it comes to bedtime, playtime and all of that, I think just because I have more time, I suppose, to give to him to play, whereas Pete is still, you know, working and all of that. So like the amount of time that they have together is more limited.

So I feel like he's so keen and able to, but Max still doesn't want to sort of give him the opportunity to, if that makes sense. How does one tackle that?

[Speaker 2] (16:39 - 17:38)
Yeah, so two things. The first is that, and this is something that many parents battle with, is that children go through phases of favourites. They just do where they just kind of, that person is the flavour of the month.

And I'm telling you now, what is coming for you is that at some point the next couple of months is you won't be the flavour of the month. And mums find that really hard that their little boys identify very strongly, and little girls, but identify very strongly with dad and that's such an important relationship. So it's not forever is the first thing I would say.

The other thing I would say is that, and you mentioned it earlier on, that there's a lot that can be done with the baby number two that they're actually not going to really notice. And that's where nannies and dads are actually great. So for instance, if there's that colicky patch just before the evening feed and the baby needs to be in a sling or taken for a walk, dad or nanny can do that.

The only thing they can't do is breastfeed. So, you know, I think getting other people to actually take the newborn so you can have the time with Max is great. And then also, I don't know if you ever heard that episode with Cass and I speak.


[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 1:42)
I speak about it in lots of my courses about Watch, Wait and Wonder, which is a strategy where you build a box, you can take any plastic box, any box, and into that box you put very special toys and you put two of each of them. So you put two pretend cell phones or two dollies or two dinosaurs or two trucks or whatever it is. And you take that box down at a certain time in the day and you make it Max's time, maybe when the baby's sleeping or when somebody else is taking care of Tiny.

And then what you do is you just open the box and you have no cell phone in the room, it has to be just you and Max, and you just follow his lead on what he plays with. So he takes out the truck, you take out the truck. He pushes the truck on the floor, you push the truck on the floor.

And it's such a funny thing because without leading his play and without instructing his play and just following his play, there's this incredible connection. And the person who developed it was a woman, a psychologist called Elizabeth Muir, and it's now done extensively worldwide. It's called Watch, Wait and Wonder.

And it's just a wonderful time. And the research has shown that it forms this incredible, it almost fills up that emotional tank that the child has, that space. And they tend to do better.

And then a few hours later, they're actually not interested in you anymore. So it's just 15 minutes with a box and exclusive. And I would put that into the day and see whether or not that helps a little bit.

And then the last thing is that if he is very specific about you have to be the one to put him down for now, I would go with that. And because maybe the specificity around that is just like you, the only person who can breastfeed the little one, you might be the only person who can actually do bedtime with Max at the moment and it will pass.

[Speaker 1] (1:43 - 1:59)
Okay. Yeah. Just shuffle things around to make sure that it's that time for him.

And the Watch, Wait and Wonder is that, is the sort of science behind it that if when you're mimicking them, it makes them feel seen and understood or? Okay.

[Speaker 3] (1:59 - 2:00)
Very much so. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (2:00 - 3:08)
So they, and that's why, you know, nine out of 10 times that we play with our children, just because of the way that we exist in society, it's very goal-directed, very focused and very instructive. Or it's according to a plot and a plan, like we start at the beginning of the book and we finish the book going forwards through it. Or we're going to build some Lego and this has to go on top of that, you know, or there's a puzzle piece that has to fit into that place.

So a lot of play is very, we use the word convergent. It ends up at one single point, whereas this type of play is very divergent. It can go in any direction and by following their lead, they do feel seen.

And just having time is enough, you know, and it's kind of like, you know, Watch, Wait and Wonder. I even did it with my teenagers and it really bore fruit. And that was to get home from school and just sit with no agenda.

And while they ate their lunch, and we can sound like a crazy thing, but just because there was no agenda and there was no, you know, how was school today? What marks did you get? There was none of that.

It was just open time. They then could speak about things and they could take it in their direction. So it's kind of letting him be seen and heard and take it in his direction.

[Speaker 1] (3:09 - 3:44)
I guess also maybe giving him some power in a way, right? I read about how, and I guess that's where the power play comes in with toddlers and all of that, where they just want to have a little bit of power to be able to say like, I want to do X, Y, Z, because 99% of the day is planned and you now have to go to school, you now have to part, da, da, da, da. And so to give them that, yeah, that opportunity to just be like, okay, well, I'm going to navigate this play and this is how it's going to work probably is so lovely for them.

[Speaker 2] (3:45 - 3:59)
Yeah, really. Yeah. Yeah.

Lovely. So I don't want to end the episode without hearing about where your pregnancy went, because now you are having this little one in South Africa, that must have been a very different experience in terms of the birth to Max's birth in the UK.

[Speaker 3] (4:01 - 4:02)
It actually wasn't. You know what?

[Speaker 1] (4:02 - 7:54)
I had a very positive birth experience with Max in the UK, cannot fault the NHS for that at all. I think where things went a little bit awry, where I probably have a tiny bit of PTSD from it, was the aftercare when we were actually in the labour ward. But it was so like situation specific.

We ended up in a ward where there were probably 15 of us women, all with babies that we didn't know what to do with in, you know, varying levels of pain and recovery from birth. And husbands couldn't stay over at the time, thanks to COVID, and there was a massive shortage of staff. And so there was one midwife on duty across all of us.

And you know, like the alarm bells are going because this woman doesn't know what to do and this kid is crying. And it was just absolute mayhem. And I remember I had to stay for two nights and the second night, Max didn't.

So he didn't latch properly because he had a tongue tie. So I was really struggling with breastfeeding at the time. He had poop meconium all over my bed and everything.

And my little light next to the bed didn't work. So I just remember so clearly sitting over him with my cell phone light, trying to see what was cracking and trying to like change his nappy and the nurse wasn't coming. And he was screaming blue murder because he was so hungry.

And I was just like, give me a bottle of formula like that is all I could like do to just solve the situation. Chucked it in his mouth and at least that helped. But yeah, that was a really rough night.

But other than that, the actual birth was incredible. I think I had an angel of a midwife who actually delivered him. And I think timing also worked out so beautifully that day because we were admitted into the ward basically as soon as there was a new change of staff at 8 p.m. So I had her all the way through, which I also really appreciated because, you know, obviously leading up to the birth, you have different people the whole time doing your scans and everything. And so I think it is. And I've spoken to so many friends who have said it's so jarring when you like halfway through your labour and then suddenly a new midwife comes in and this new midwife you don't have a vibe with. And, you know, suddenly it's like, oh my word, like who is this person who's now needing to like, you know, deliver my child?

Whereas this time around, I mean, at the end of the day, my gynae came in just for the last little bit. I think she was there for 45 minutes just for the big push. Otherwise, also just had nurses and midwives around.

But we were the only people in the whole ward. So that was lovely. We definitely got some VIP treatment from that.

And the post recovery was wonderful because, you know, we had a private room and we could, you know, people could stay over and all that. So definitely much smoother on that front. But then I guess it also is just, you know, you sort of know what to expect and it's just much calmer just in general because of that.

The only thing that I was never sparked because I had an epidural with Max's birth and I was quite sure that I wanted to have it this time around as well. My gynae said to me about two weeks before I gave birth, like, just come in early enough because we're quite low on the ground when it comes to anaesthetists at the moment. And I think that was really hanging over my head the whole time to be like, we must get there in time.

Like, I just do not want this birth to be like, you know, for it to sort of happen in the car or anything like that, because I know I have heard the stories of second and later births just being so quick. So I think that was my one big fear this time around, but it all worked out beautifully and it was just the loveliest birth.

[Speaker 2] (7:54 - 8:05)
That's amazing. So that is actually what my question was going to be is, did you have pain relief? So you had an epidural and did they, I mean, how did you know when it was time to push?

Because I've never had an epidural.

[Speaker 3] (8:05 - 8:08)
So I mean, how do you actually know that you're going to know when to push?

[Speaker 1] (8:09 - 9:47)
So strangely enough, with the first one, with Max, they do a different type of epidural in the UK versus here, where it's like a self-administered type thing. So you can, you get like a little button and you can increase your pain relief as you go. And so I feel like I had it at a point where I could still feel the pressure, but it was, yeah, the pain was gone.

So that was great. This time around, it was just a sort of a once or same level pain relief the whole way through. And it was hectic.

I remember feeling really, really freaked out by like the limpness of the bottom part of my body, which I didn't feel like I had the first time around. I feel like I could still keep my legs up and have a little bit more mobility in that way. Whereas this time it was literally, I mean, the nurses had to sort of like flop me over like a dead fish, which freaked me out.

But again, totally dead dummy. Strangely enough, and it apparently doesn't happen with everyone, but I actually did right at the end when it was 10 centimetres and the pain was like at high gear, I could actually feel a pinch in the one side where I think the guy, he said he's probably pushing on a nerve. And so there's nothing we can do that's, you know, that's, this is the pain relief you're getting.

Everything else is up to you. And so because of that pushing on the nerve, I could still actually feel when the pain was coming for the contractions. But at the end of the day, I guess I also just tell you it's happening now.

Push. Okay.

[Speaker 3] (9:47 - 9:48)
Very interesting.

[Speaker 2] (9:48 - 10:00)
That's amazing. And when he was born, I mean, what was that feeling with baby number two? Because you'd been somewhat ambivalent and not knowing whether or not it would be the same as falling in love with the first one.

How did it feel?

[Speaker 1] (10:02 - 11:11)
Oh, you know what? I, I actually haven't, I actually haven't had that, that rush of connection just yet. And I didn't have it with Max either.

I can't remember, it's, it was a slow burn, um, with Maxie. And I mean, I'm utterly obsessed with him now. So there's no, there's like no doubt that that is there.

Um, but with baby number two, I also didn't have that feeling that so many women talk about. Um, and I don't know if it's just a, if it's just like a personality thing or, you know, if it's sometimes different from one baby to the next, maybe you can weigh in on that, but I'm still, I'm still waiting to feel that. And obviously there's, you know, all of that, um, connection in terms of, I will do anything for you and I will protect you with my life.

But that, I don't know, that feeling wasn't, wasn't there. Um, so it was very calm. It was obviously, you know, so beautiful to be able to put him on my chest and he left straight away.

And so all of that just worked out so beautifully, but that, that feeling is there.

[Speaker 2] (11:11 - 13:48)
Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm so glad you mentioned that because there is this misconception that you fall in love the moment you fall pregnant type thing, you know, that your, your pregnancy is glowing, that you fall in love, that this baby arrives, that you bond within minutes, that it's, you know, this overwhelming, wonderful feeling. And the reality is that for most women, it isn't that.

And, you know, there's a lot of very good literature that shows that so-called bonding, which is the mother's attachment to the baby can, for some people start actually before they fall pregnant with the romanticised idea of what the baby, who the baby is going to be and this baby's life. And it just progresses through pregnancy and that they have this overwhelming feeling from the beginning, but a lot of women actually are very ambivalent in pregnancy. How is this going to disrupt my relationship with my partner?

How's it going to disrupt my relationship with baby number one? How's this going to actually affect who I am as a person and my identity. And for some people, more than just ambivalence that they actually realise they don't really want this.

In fact, you know, maybe this is, this is foreign and it's, and it's repulsive and, you know, all of those emotions, that entire range are absolutely normal and do not bode badly for the baby. They are, if women are in extreme ambivalence and maybe depression and anxiety through pregnancy, they can code interestingly for postnatal depression. So antenatal anxiety and depression and detachment can be a warning trigger for us to watch out for a woman to have postnatal depression or what we now call perinatal anxiety or which is a new word.

Perinatal means everything around the birth, pre and post, whereas postnatal used to mean obviously after birth. And it used to be called PND, postnatal depression, because it was a depression that people would focus on. But actually we now know it's actually more about around anxiety sometimes than depression.

So we do watch it if women have really been very ambivalent in pregnancy. But having said that, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be ambivalent afterwards. And so then you can have women who fall in love in the birthing room and then women for who like you, it's a, it's a growth process.

And, you know, I love that, that you said it's a slow burn, you know, and, and you know that you will get there because you are there with Max and obsessed with him and an amazing mom. And it just takes time. You know, you're getting to know who this human is.

You're getting to know who you are as a mom of two children, which is different to you as a woman living in London in an inner city with only one baby and just you, you know, whereas now you've got mom and dad and nanny, I'm sure around to help.

[Speaker 3] (13:49 - 13:51)
Yes. And a hundred percent.

[Speaker 1] (13:51 - 15:06)
And I think this time around, it has been such a weird first 10 days where we were in such a bubble the first time around because of COVID we were, you know, well, we actually got COVID all of us in hospital. And so, you know, for the first week we were sort of just at home. I mean, we didn't really have symptoms, but we'd actually tested because we wanted to start seeing people and then we were like, oh, okay, well let's just pause that for a good couple of days.

So it was so lovely to have that nesting phase actually. And then it was middle of winter. So they would just like, you know, long walks as a family in the cold and that kind of a thing and no, no other hands on deck.

And this time around, I mean, we have had both sets of families here the whole time, sisters flying in, other sister down the road and then, yeah, exactly nanny and friends dropping in every single day, which has been so lovely and it just has made it so easy actually. But it also means, I mean, I have hardly had time to hold my child outside of, you know, the usual sort of breastfeeding and in the small hours of the morning. But I guess that does sort of also delay that time that you get to bond with them because you're not sort of staring into their face lovingly for hours on end.

[Speaker 2] (15:07 - 16:06)
Very interesting. And like with almost everything that happens in life, there's a win and there's a lose, you know, the pros and cons to both. So, you know, the con of not having support in those first few weeks and being so isolated, that's abnormal.

And that is really, really hardcore. I mean, when I think about women and I knew obviously was supporting many women during COVID, living in bubbles with some of them toddlers and babies with no help and no care being able to get in. I mean, it just, it's abnormal and it's not the way we were supposed to be.

And yet the outcome was just so positive for you. And now, you know, the enriched kind of family unit, the village, who's going to be raising baby number two and who's now involved in Max's life as well, has so many benefits, but then also comes with a couple of downsides, like the busyness of life, what's expected of you suddenly, you know, you don't get to nest and hole up. And, you know, so it's really, really interesting to think about those two so dichotomous scenarios.

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (16:06 - 17:02)
Yeah. And then I guess just, yeah, as you mentioned, throwing a toddler into the mix. And I think that's where during the pregnancy, I also feel like I didn't bond with the fact that I have a baby.

It was the weirdest thing I was saying to friends sort of towards the end of my pregnancy that suddenly I'm almost so surprised that I'm now going to be giving birth sometime soon, which is ridiculous because you've had nine months to think about it. But every day is just so busy with the toddler. And if I think about, you know, sort of coming home with this baby and him, you know, spending sort of two seconds to coo over it and then being like, mommy, let's go play, you know, that is such a like indicate or such a sort of symbol of the days that have passed, I suppose, in the past 10 days in terms of like, there's just constant play happening and very little nesting.

[Speaker 2] (17:03 - 17:03)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (17:03 - 17:04)
Yeah, it is.

[Speaker 2] (17:04 - 17:15)
It's very busy with two. Well, I have loved this chat with you, Nina. I really have enjoyed it.

And I know moms will be taking away some absolutely incredible nuggets, especially about that journey to two. Very real and very honest.

[Speaker 3] (17:16 - 17:24)
And I really appreciate you sharing like this with us. Oh, well, thank you for having me on. It's always so lovely to chat to you, Meg.

Brilliant. Thanks, Nina.

[Speaker 1] (17:25 - 17:35)
Thanks to everyone who joined us. We will see you the same time next week. Until then, download ParentSense app and take the guesswork out of parenting.

(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.)