WEBVTT Sense by Meg Faure — Season 8 | Episode 216 You Are Not Losing Yourself: The Truth About Matrescence Host: Meg Faure | Guest Host: Madge Booth NOTE: Timestamps in Part 2 have been offset by 21:55 to align with the merged episode. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:58.000 MEG FAURE: This week is a little different. Today I'm handing over the mic and stepping into the guest chair, and handing over the host's mic to Madge. Madge is the host of the MOMents podcast and she is turning the questions on me — because this week we're talking about the thing that almost nobody warns you about. We're not talking about nappies, we're not talking about feeding, we're not talking about sleep. We're talking about you. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:02:00.000 MEG FAURE: What happens when a woman becomes a mother? It has a name — it's called matrescence. You may have heard of it. It is the transition from woman into mother, and it is about as big a shift as adolescence, except it happens in a very rapid period of time. One day you're pregnant and the next day you're holding a newborn, running on no sleep, and everyone around you is asking, "How's the baby? You must be so happy. How beautiful is your baby?" And it isn't always like that for you. 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:10.000 MEG FAURE: In this episode, Madge and I get really honest about it. We get honest about the fact that grief for the loss of who you were can live right alongside love for your baby. Why you can adore your child and yet still mourn the woman you used to be. What happens to your identity when you go back to work months after giving birth, and how you can actually hold yourself through all of this. I share five practical tips on how to hold yourself. We talk about the science of what actually happens inside your brain and how it rewires. And we talk about the truth nobody says out loud — that this is the hardest and most invisible leap of your adult life. 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:45.000 MEG FAURE: If you've ever looked in the mirror and thought, "I don't quite recognise myself anymore," then this episode is for you. You are not losing yourself — you are rewriting your story. Welcome to Sense by Meg Faure. Please do subscribe and share this episode, because it is an impactful one. **PODCAST INTRODUCTION** 00:03:45.000 --> 00:04:20.000 MEG FAURE: Welcome to Sense by Meg Faure, where we make sense of the science and art of parenting. Parenting is grey, gritty, and beautiful all at once, and my life's work as a healthcare professional is helping parents feel more confident in a season that can feel really overwhelming. In each episode we share honest conversations with real mums, explore the science with experts, and simply make sense of it all in practical ways. This is your space. You're not alone. You're held. **GUEST HOST INTRODUCTION** 00:04:20.000 --> 00:05:30.000 MADGE BOOTH: Welcome back to the MOMents podcast — for working mums walking the tightrope between work, career growth, home, and family. When I was pregnant I read every baby book I could lay my hands on, including my mum's dusty old books from the 80s. But the one book that made the biggest impact — the one I kept going back to in the moments I needed practical advice, and the only one I reread when I was pregnant the second time — was Baby Sense by Meg Faure. New mothers today are lucky enough to have the Parent Sense app, including an intuitive AI co-parent which is like having Meg right there with you every step of the way. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:06:15.000 MADGE BOOTH: But when we prepare to welcome our little ones, we tend to focus so much on preparing for the baby that we hardly think about what is about to happen to us once we become a mum. The identity shift, the loss of previous versions of ourselves, and adapting to a whole new way of life — in real time. In this episode, we're not talking about babies or kids. We're talking about you, the mum, and the development you go through in the early stages of your child's life and beyond. Stay tuned — even if your babies are much older now, it's such a good episode to understand and process all the emotions and transitions. 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:30.000 MADGE BOOTH: Helping us explore how our identity shifts in motherhood is Meg Faure — the one and only. I'm so excited to have her with me. Hi, Meg. 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:35.000 MEG FAURE: Hello, Madge. It's lovely to be here. **WHAT IS MATRESCENCE?** 00:06:35.000 --> 00:09:30.000 MADGE BOOTH: So when we become mothers, our world fundamentally changes. But what is actually happening to us psychologically during this transition? MEG FAURE: It's an absolutely massive shift. For many years it was just taken for granted — all mothers and aunts knew about it and protected the new young mother. But in recent years the wheels have really come unstuck and that's why there's so much conversation about what's going on for us as we shift. For many of us we haven't grown up with only the desire to be a mum. We've also grown up with the desire to be a woman, a career woman, to perform other roles — politicians, doctors. And so when we encounter motherhood, coming from this incredibly competent space that we've always occupied, there is a real material shift at a psychological level. 00:09:30.000 --> 00:11:45.000 MEG FAURE: Recently there's a word that has been circulating almost like a buzzword — matrescence. What's interesting is that it was coined by Dana Raphael, actually in the 1970s. It somehow came into vogue and then disappeared, but it's a fabulous word because it articulates that massive transition from being this competent career woman into being a mother. If I say "adolescent boy," your mind immediately goes to hormones, neurological changes, physical changes, relationship changes — everybody gets it. Matrescence happens in exactly the same way. We have a massive hormonal shift — not over a few years like an adolescent, but over nine months, and then an immediate further shift after birth. Our body image changes. But the biggest piece is the existential and cognitive element: our entire world focus shifts, and it happens literally within hours of giving birth. 00:11:45.000 --> 00:13:30.000 MEG FAURE: What happens to our minds in that moment is that we become absolutely obsessed with keeping this child alive and attuning to them. That doesn't necessarily mean it's beautiful and romantic and bonding all at once — but it does mean we are deeply attuned to keeping a human life alive, and that takes an enormous amount of cognitive energy. The things we thought about before — how is my body feeling, what's sore — those become secondary to the one thing: how do I read this human and how do I keep them alive? Studies of grey matter show it fundamentally changes after a woman gives birth and stays changed for about two years. It's not that she loses grey matter — although in moments she'll feel like she has — it's that she's redirecting her brain's energy and focus towards the human being she's trying to keep alive, bond with, and understand. **GRIEF ALONGSIDE LOVE** 00:13:30.000 --> 00:14:20.000 MADGE BOOTH: Nothing else on earth could matter to me in those first few weeks. I was in a baby bubble. And when I returned to work I felt, "How can I ever take this seriously again? I'm not the same person anymore." MEG FAURE: I mean it really was massive for me too — my son is 27 and I remember it like yesterday. It was before social media, before WhatsApp. Our main channel was email, so I started sending a weekly update about my child to my entire email list. One day a friend replied and said, "Meg, what on earth makes you think any of us are interested in him? Stop sending us the emails." But for me there was this incredible focus on this most precious life. It's called primary maternal preoccupation — we go so deep with our own little ones. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:15:10.000 MADGE BOOTH: Why do you think nobody talks about matrescence when there's so much talk about nappies and feeding and sleep? MEG FAURE: What I've just described to you is messy. It's not neat. It's not the kind of Johnson's Baby advert about what motherhood should be like. And people don't like mess. Our human brains work by creating predictable models for the world — and there's no predictable model here. The predictable model we think we should have for motherhood is that it is full of blessings, a period of incredible glow. So there's this feeling of "shut up and get on with it — count your blessings." And of course as humans we like a fix. I can't fix that for you, but sleep and feeding and vaccinations and weaning — that's practical, and I can tell you what to do about it. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:20.000 MEG FAURE: I've authored eight parenting books and that's always been my approach — here are the practical questions a mum is asking about feeding, sleep, and so on. But one of the best books I've ever read wasn't one of mine. It was written by a psychologist in Cape Town — Linda Lewis — called When Your Blessings Don't Count. It was about perinatal mood and distress. She asked me to write the foreword, and I loved it. But did it become a bestseller? No. The title — "When Your Blessings Don't Count" — that's messy. People don't want to approach that. Whereas Baby Sense, Sleep Sense, Feeding Sense — that's practical. We'll engage with practical. 00:16:20.000 --> 00:17:30.000 MADGE BOOTH: In the time I've been exploring mums' emotions, there aren't many answers and it differs from person to person. Would you say it's normal to feel grief for your old life while still absolutely adoring your child? MEG FAURE: Absolutely. In the same minute you can be overwhelmed with love and want this little one to stay small forever — and at the same time you are grieving the woman you've left behind. Grieving the fact that you could walk out the door without a nappy bag. Grieving going to the toilet on your own — I don't think you go to the toilet on your own for ten years when you have children. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:18:30.000 MEG FAURE: That ambivalence comes with a very complicated emotion, and that emotion is shame. "I really shouldn't be grieving my old self. I should be loving this moment." And that's the piece nobody talks about. Mums don't say out loud, "I can't do my two-year-old for another minute — somebody take this child away." And actually, I don't think the grief itself is such a terrible thing. It's the shame around the grief that concerns me more, because shame isolates us and keeps us silent. What I see coming through on Instagram more lately is mums saying, "I really miss that woman. I miss those moments. I miss my relationship with my partner, which has shifted so dramatically." That's the conversation we need. **RETURNING TO WORK** 00:18:30.000 --> 00:20:00.000 MADGE BOOTH: The majority of mothers return to work just months after having their baby. How do these competing priorities and identities impact a mother's sense of self? MEG FAURE: The return to work is a very interesting period. Some women choose not to return — a conscious decision to walk away from something they loved. But an overwhelming majority do return to work, either because they've spent ten to fifteen years building their careers or because they simply don't have financial stability to choose otherwise. And in that moment, the juggle is real, because you expect to step back into exactly the mould you were before — but you never will. 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:55.000 MEG FAURE: Part of the maternal brain is permanently occupied — at least until your children are in their mid-20s there's never a minute of the day that you don't know where they are, what the next feed is, when the vaccination is, who's picking them up. So we go back to work carrying that cognitive load alongside the expectation of performing equally. What's fabulous — and I deeply believe this — is that given enormous freedom and flexibility, a woman will carry both. There's actually a recent report from Maverick Media that looked at what actually happens to women returning to work. Becoming a new mum exercises parts of the brain that never existed before. We become masters of multitasking. In my business, almost everyone we employ is a woman and I'd say 80% of them are mothers. What I get from them is 10 times what I'd expect from a young graduate — because they know how to multitask, how to prioritise, and which balls to drop. Knowing which balls to drop is an incredibly important skill in the work world. **AD BREAK** 00:21:55.000 --> 00:23:18.000 [AD BREAK — ParentSense App] Today's Dose of Sense is brought to you by ParentSense, the expert-based parenting app that gives you daily support from pregnancy to sleep, feeding, and daily routines. Take the guesswork out of parenting — download ParentSense today and use the code SENSE50 for 50% off. **REMOTE WORK AND BREASTFEEDING** 00:23:18.000 --> 00:24:30.000 MEG FAURE: COVID gave us a gift in the form of remote work. For the first time, CEOs and business owners understood that you can get things out of people at the same level if they work remotely. One of the most incredible stats that came out of remote work in South Africa is that we saw an increase in breastfeeding rates. With all the strategies the government was trying to employ to increase breastfeeding, the thing that moved the needle was COVID — because mums could be at home. She was doing her job, carrying all the responsibilities, but she was also able to breastfeed her baby. That's the kind of flexibility that remote work can offer. 00:24:30.000 --> 00:25:50.000 MADGE BOOTH: My son was born in 2017. I was expressing at work and I took the MyCiti bus from Cape Town CBD to our suburbs with my frozen breast milk. I did that for quite a while. My daughter was born at the end of 2019 — I went back after maternity leave for only two weeks and then lockdown started. I breastfed her for almost two years. I'm definitely one of those statistics. MEG FAURE: Absolutely. Very interesting. **WHO IS MOST VULNERABLE?** 00:25:50.000 --> 00:28:10.000 MADGE BOOTH: Are some women more vulnerable to identity loss during matrescence than others? MEG FAURE: Yes. There are certainly women who are more vulnerable to mental health crises after their babies are born. Those who don't have an adequate support structure — women who are isolated and inadequately supported — will definitely be more vulnerable. Women with a history of anxiety, depression, trauma, or mental illness. Women who have had real battles with fertility, multiple pregnancy losses, or birth trauma. And then interestingly, there's the concept Fraiberg called "ghosts in the nursery" — the intergenerational transmission of what our mothers brought to us from their mothers. I was incredibly fortunate to have a mum who practically moved in with my first child and lived down the road for the others. Almost every day she told me what a fabulous mother I was — how wonderful I was at reading their signals. That kind of reinforcement became the voice I heard in my head. Positive affirmations through the early years really do make a difference. They reinforce that you're actually doing an okay job. 00:28:10.000 --> 00:29:45.000 MEG FAURE: And then there's the woman who has had a single-focused role — CEO of a bank division, for example — who comes into motherhood and finds her identity totally upended. So you have things coming from your deep history, from that pregnancy, from your environment and support system, and from your prior identity. All of those together give you your risk factor profile. A woman who always wanted to be a mum, who is strongly supported by her partner, who has an involved mother and good support systems — she's going to do better. As a world we need to intervene by finding those gaps and plugging them for specific mums. **FIVE TIPS TO HOLD ON TO YOURSELF** 00:29:45.000 --> 00:33:30.000 MADGE BOOTH: What can mothers do proactively to hold on to themselves through this transition — especially if they don't have support? MEG FAURE: I'll give you five tips. First — name it. Just knowing that matrescence and this transition is a big thing is the very first step. When it feels like a chaotic mess, it is. Name it. Say, "This is chaos. I don't have to have it perfect." Second — give yourself one small anchor to your pre-baby self. Find one thing that is really part of your identity from before. Yoga classes, hair and nails, marathon running, community service, date nights with your partner. You can't do yoga four times a week anymore, but you can do it once. You can't have time alone with your partner the way you used to, but you can protect date night once a week. Put in one anchor every single week. Third — protect connection and build community. The village is the biggest loss in modern society when it comes to motherhood. I play paddle — so join Paddle and Prams if that's your thing. Or Stroller Strides, which is an organisation I was involved with in Central Park in New York. Or Baby Hub in Cape Town. Find your village and invest there. Fourth — lower the bar deliberately. Have a look at the things you don't have capacity for anymore and let them go. The laundry mounting up on the washing machine. Saying no to Friday evening plans or a Sunday braai because you can't manage the social load. Say no, and let it go. Fifth — be sensitive to the difference between normal struggle and what needs support. When it's past the juggle being real and this is now mental illness, you need to reach out. Psychological support is very important at that point. **ARE MOTHERS MORE OVERWHELMED THAN BEFORE?** 00:33:30.000 --> 00:35:10.000 MADGE BOOTH: Have mothers today actually become more overwhelmed and stressed than previous generations, or are we just talking about it more openly? MEG FAURE: I think we're definitely talking about it more openly. There's always been a struggle. In communities that still don't talk about it — particularly in deep poverty — women simply have to get on with life. They're asking more basic questions: how do I feed my baby? We're asking more existential ones. But I do sometimes worry there's an overcompensation in the direction of talking about it. We need to be measured about who we're speaking to and where we're getting support from — rather than talking about it for talking's sake. We all see the influencer whose every single post is about how terrible her life is. We need to be more measured than that. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:38:00.000 MEG FAURE: Yes, the load has also genuinely changed. I watched the Barbie movie and felt quite angry afterwards. The movement from the 1950s and 60s said a woman can be anything — lawyer Barbie, Dr Barbie, whatever she wants. Then they brought out Pregnant Barbie and she got discontinued. And I think that's symbolic of something. That Barbie didn't get discontinued in real life. She had to continue. Society's expectations plus her own expectations of career and womanhood — and then motherhood never got let go. So now she sits with a massive load. And it's that load that has made us more fragile. Basic physics tells you: when load gets too high and tension develops, something breaks. We also see a significant decline in fertility rates — because women are looking at all of this and some are choosing to discontinue pregnant Barbie. We are at a watershed moment in terms of what are our expectations of ourselves, and what are society's expectations of mothers. 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:30.000 MADGE BOOTH: I had Mandy Wiener on MOMents and we spoke about exactly this. We tell girls they can be absolutely anything. Then you have a baby and realise it's not working. Mandy's advice was: you can have it all, just not all at the same time. That landed for me — there will be seasons where something's got to give, where you step back, where you're present for your family. MEG FAURE: I fully agree. But there are also times where there's a window of opportunity. And fertility rates decline dramatically after 35. If it's on your radar to have a baby, you need to go: "This is my window." You will be able to come back to your career — we have multiple careers until we're 70 nowadays. Pick the right thing for the right season. **CO-REGULATION AND OUR CHILDREN** 00:39:30.000 --> 00:42:30.000 MADGE BOOTH: What happens to our children when we are constantly dysregulated — never having a chance to shut down, never processing everything that's happening to us? MEG FAURE: Co-regulation is fascinating. When I'm in a calm, rested state, I can transition that to you. I can help you self-regulate. But if I'm frazzled, I can trigger you. We see this in our marriages — if I'm tired and irritable and my husband's in a great space, he can bring me back, but I can also drag him into my dysregulation. It's exactly the same with our little ones. When we are consistently dysregulated, tired, and frazzled, we cannot expect ourselves to be able to get them to self-regulate. The classic example is five o'clock in the afternoon — they're tired, angry, hungry, and melting down. We're also at the end of the day, sensory thresholds low. A perfect storm for temper tantrums, bedtime battles, and mealtime fights. 00:42:30.000 --> 00:43:45.000 MEG FAURE: I want to say something important for the mums thinking, "I'm always frazzled, I can never co-regulate." The most protective thing for a child is not a perfectly serene mother. It's a mother who is supported sufficiently that she can recover — and then help to repair what happened with her child. You are going to stuff it, mum. That is a given. You're going to lose it. And coming back, apologising, repairing — that's where the magic actually happens. It's not in perfect parenting. **CLOSING MESSAGE** 00:43:45.000 --> 00:45:00.000 MADGE BOOTH: Meg, if you could sit across from a mum listening right now, what would you want her to hear? MEG FAURE: I would want her to know that she has not lost herself — she is being rewritten. And that is a different thing. Your life, who you are, is being rewritten by your little one. The disorientation you're feeling right now is not weakness and it's not failure. It is the most significant developmental shift of your adult life, and it's happening invisibly inside of you — at the time when everybody's asking about the baby, not about you. You are allowed to love your child fiercely and also grieve who you've lost. As this transition happens, you've lost someone, and you will grieve them. That is okay. 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:20.000 MEG FAURE: And I also want mums to know that there are parts of you that feel like they're falling apart — that impossible juggling, the dysregulation, the feeling that you don't know who this person is anymore. But all of these things are very quietly and silently making you more capable. What your baby is preparing your brain for is to be even better and achieve more later on — just because of the number of balls you're juggling. In the mess and the magic of this moment, you are not less. You are not a disaster. You are not to be shamed for grieving your old self. You are becoming more. You are building yourself into something phenomenal. 00:46:20.000 --> 00:47:10.000 MADGE BOOTH: I got goosebumps. So beautiful. Thank you so much, Meg, for joining me today and for sharing your experience, your wisdom, and your knowledge. This is such an important topic. To the mums — the fact that you're here, listening, thinking, and reflecting with us says everything. If this episode was meaningful to you, please share it with another mum who needs to hear it. And if you haven't already, hit subscribe so you never miss a conversation like this one. Every single one is made for you. The mum on the tightrope, doing her absolute best. Until next time. Bye. **PODCAST OUTRO** 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:55.000 MEG FAURE: Thank you for joining me today. I hope this conversation brought you a little more clarity, calm, and confidence on your parenting journey. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with a friend who needs to hear it today, and go and subscribe so you never miss an episode. I'll be back next week — same time, same place, always here to support you. In the meantime, download the Parent Sense app to take the guesswork out of feeding, sleep, weaning, routines, and everything in between.