You want to see that passion for little ones come out that they actually feel that they have chosen this as a profession. You’ve got to trust your gut. You’re handing over your most precious little thing to somebody else to love and care for and so that instinct you’ve got to go with it.
We don’t see ourselves as an employer of a nanny and that there are actual rules and regulations governing that. Welcome to Sense by Meg Fora, the podcast that’s brought to you by ParentSense, the app that takes guesswork out of parenting. If you’re a new parent then you are in good company.
Your host Meg Fora is a well-known OT, infant specialist and the author of eight parenting books. Each week we’re going to spend time with new mums and dads just like you to chat about the week’s wins, the challenges and the questions of the moment. Subscribe to the podcast, download the ParentSense app and Catchmaker every week to make the most of that first year of your little one’s life.
And now, meet your host. Welcome back mums and dads. Absolutely awesome to have you join us here today on Sense by Meg Fora.
I am Meg Fora, I’m your host today and as we do each week we’re going to be looking at some of the issues that come up that are top of mind for new parents. And today’s talk is all about child care and it’s about what is the best child care for your child. And once we’ve started to explore that, we’re going to have a look a little bit at how nannies can perform that role for our little ones and the role that they can have in our little one’s lives.
And if nannies are so critically important, how do we make sure A, that we choose them well, B, that we hold on to them and C, that we really make sure that their work life is really, really happy and exciting for them too. So, it’s all around nannies and child care today. And of course, I do not necessarily hold all of the knowledge on all the different domains of early parenting and so I’ve drawn other experts to come alongside me and you to share some wisdom.
And I think that there’s nobody better in South Africa at the moment than Lara Schoenfeld. So, welcome Lara. Thanks Meg.
So great to be here with you. Hello parents. So, Lara is an occupational therapist like I am.
She is the founder of two companies. The one is a company that I am involved in as well, which is PlaySense, which is a playgroup program. And if you haven’t heard our episode on playgroups and PlaySense, please do go and listen to it.
It’s all around early education. But Lara’s other business is a business called Nanny and Me. And Nanny and Me is a massively impactful business in South Africa.
It has a number of little groups that are running and we’ll ask Lara to tell us a little bit more about it. But the focus in Nanny and Me is very much not just on stimulating little ones, but on empowering their nannies. And that’s because right at the heart of everything that Lara is passionate about is empowerment of other women and in particular nannies.
So, nannies is the topic for today, Lara, and I’m just absolutely delighted that you’re here with us. Well, thanks Meg. What an awesome intro.
So, Lara, very often the first question that comes to mind before we even start to think about hiring a nanny is actually whether or not nannies are a good option. I think there are a lot of mums who think that actually nannies are not a good option and that a better option is a school or a creche. And I’d like to just kick off right there and talk about, you know, kind of the differences between those types of childcare and their value.
Sure, Meg. And I just want to say not everyone has that choice. So, even if they have to choose a school, a preschool or a creche, to look for these same factors, even in that caregiver.
So, just to say that at the beginning of that. But the first thing is that in the first thousand days, our baby’s brains reach 80% of their adult size. So, what’s happening in that brain? Well, firstly, for that brain to develop, I need to feel safe and I need to know that I’m loved and that my basic needs are met.
So, that’s attachment. And all the neuroscience points to the fact that our brains are wired through the limbic brain, our emotional brain, and that literally you are building the architecture for all other development for your little one in that first two years. And study after study shows that the type and quality of that key and the stress our little ones experience in those first two years sets up their brain for the rest of their lives.
So, we want to make sure that that caregiver is providing that one-on-one focused, consistent attention. And for working parents out there, the good news is that children can safely attach to more than one caregiver, as long as that person is consistent. And nannies provide this care in your own home.
So, baby has their own things. So, that safety in terms of the environment is still there. They’re not getting used to a whole new routine and whole new space and sensations and smells.
So, that goes a long way, as you’ll know, with all your sensory stuff for babies. So, that attachment, I’m safe, I’m loved, is actually the foundation, not only for brain development, but even our socialization, even knowing that I can trust the world, the world is a good place, that people are trustworthy. And the second reason is around immunity.
So, pediatricians have a term for this, they call it Kresch syndrome, and babies can be sick every six weeks when exposed to a group environment. Now, you just think of that as a busy working parent, and you’re going back to work, and you have this sick little one who can’t go to Kresch. Never mind the repeat visits to the pee, the sleepless nights, using your leave.
And little babies who are sick every six weeks, they get secondary infections, such as bronchitis, you know, all these other inflammatory infections. So, we really want our little ones to be thriving physically. So, the first point was around really emotions.
The second one is physically. The third one is around attention. So, there are actually some studies that have shown that children being looked after at home, whether it’s by mommy or nanny, is far better than those who are being brought up in the busy group environment.
They don’t say why, but when they measure the children’s attention, they had far better rates of being able to pay focused attention than the children in the Kresch environment. And Meg, you and I as OTs, we might start to guess why that may be, and that is, if you think of a busy Kresch environment, how much stimulation that baby’s receiving. Plus, they never get that one-on-one care.
So, they’re on the carpet, there are lots of toys, lots of babies, lots of noise. So, visual stimulation. But there’s no one person guiding them through that activity.
Let’s start, let’s do it, let’s finish, let’s pack it away. If you struggle, let’s help you to solve the problem and feel that competence. So, that’s kind of how, I guess, the attention is developed.
And attention is the cornerstone for then our mental well-being. And then the last one, a lot of moms and dads think that going to Kresch will develop my baby’s social skills. And interestingly, you know, the research shows us again, that children really start socializing from two.
They engage in parallel play up to then, they don’t have language, we need language to socialize. And their main socialization is with the primary caregivers in their lives. And as long as that is built on that foundation of safety and trust, they will actually make friends really easily later on, because they know how to relate, how to trust others.
I think you’ve really illustrated that so clearly, Lara, that, you know, when you do have the choice, moms, and Lara said it at the beginning, we don’t always have the choice. And some circumstances where you won’t have the choice might be that, you know, it might be financial, it might that you can’t find a nanny in your area, it might be that you don’t live in South Africa, or in a country where we have wonderful access to nannies, you know, like if you’re listening from the UK, having a nanny might be prohibitively expensive. And in that case, choose a Kresch on the similar parameters that Lara’s mentioned.
But certainly where you do have the choice, a nanny really is my first choice. And I know that it is Lara’s too. And I certainly had that for all three of my children.
So, Lara, let’s say we’ve made the call to be able to have this amazing nanny working with our little ones and working in our home. How do we go about choosing this person? Because just like anything else in life, there’s obviously a wide range of absolutely fabulous, incredible nannies through to people who might actually not be that great for a little one. So how do we choose our good nannies? Great question, Meg.
Just to say on the previous point, lately people have had such great ideas like nanny shares. So even if you feel it’s expensive, you know, still one nanny to two or three children is still way better. And you’re getting a little bit of that positive socialization that is developmentally appropriate.
So just I thought I’d mention how resourceful some of our parents are. Yes. And you know, Lara, what’s so interesting is one of my friends who lives in the UK, it was obviously prohibitively expensive.
Plus she couldn’t actually find a nanny. They were very difficult to come by. And she came across another mum who had her own child who was only about three weeks difference in age to Tove’s child.
It was Tove. And so what she did is she has that mum bring her baby to Tove’s house every day. And so they’re two little ones and the mum is with her own child.
So it’s kind of almost like a childminder stroke nanny share situation, but it’s actually in Tove’s home, which is a really good option as well. Yeah, amazing. So back to your question, I actually surveyed our mums a little while ago at Nanny and Me.
And I said, if you have an amazing nanny, please fill in the survey. And then we sort of collated what were the main themes that were coming out in the survey. So the four main things, the first is an absolute passion for children.
So particularly in South Africa, where you have a high unemployment rate, you don’t want to employ someone who just sees this as another job. And you want them in their interview, when you meet them, you want to see that passion for little ones come out, that they actually feel that they have chosen this as a profession. And we tell our nannies, you are professionals, and you can’t go and be a teacher without studying, right.
And to think that we are placing our little ones in people’s care, who aren’t often trained. So, so critical to have that passion for children, that desire to grow and develop alongside little ones. Then the second thing is character skills.
So sorry, character traits. So things like trustworthiness, reliability, a willingness to learn, absolutely critical. Which brings me on to the next point around skills, you know, how much, how many childcare giving skills does this nanny need? Well, I would say that for me, the first to trump that completely, because a lot of nannies have been mothers themselves.
And a willingness to learn means that she’s going to follow your way, you know, how you want things done, which is far better than someone coming with tons of skills, but not the passion and not that character. And moms trust your gut, when you meet this person, you’ve got to trust your gut, you’re handing over your most precious little thing to somebody else to love and care for. And so that instinct, you’ve got to go with it.
So the skills we’d be looking for things like first aid and stimulation skills, last thing is communication. So many nannies aren’t great in South Africa with written communication, but you want at least verbally, in whatever language you speak, be able to communicate clearly with your nanny. WhatsApp is great these days, you know, what nannies are WhatsAppping pictures and messages to moms at work and dads at work.
So just make sure that you can really understand each other. And this comes down to things like your values, you know, is this nanny a match for your family’s values? And how is that communicated? What does she believe about discipline? What does she believe about, you know, anything, things like independence. So some of us want our children to be doing everything independently, others, you know, like to coddle our children a little more, even that will have a spectrum.
And you want to find a nanny where the two of you gel, where you can agree, because that consistency of care is not only one person, it’s between the caregivers as well. Yeah, it’s so important. And you know, what I found, look, I have had the most incredible nanny with my children.
She was with us for, goodness, only I think 20 years. And she was just amazing. And I’ll never forget one day I was in London, and my kids were in Cape Town with her.
And I had phoned to speak to her or something. And I heard one of the children walk through the front door, because we lived very close to the school. So she’d walked home or been dropped home.
And she said, Hi, Nan. So, you know, as she walked through the door, and Nan says, Hi, my love, you know, and it was just like, it was me, you know, just exactly the same communication, and tone and warmth. And, you know, I just in that moment, I knew my kids were 100% safe and contained and happy, you know, so it is that kind of, and it’s almost like a dance between you and that person.
And I can remember when we first had our children going back many years, I went through quite a few domestic workers at the time they weren’t nannies, I was at home with my one child 100% of the time. And so we had quite a few domestic workers come to our house. And I think I probably went through about four or five.
And I can remember Philip saying, Gosh, you know, this is a real problem. You know, why are you not finding the right person. And it was just that I could see that the way that they were with James, just it just wasn’t, it didn’t work for me, they were too rigid, or they were too loud and overstimulating, or, you know, that was or they just didn’t have compassion.
And then when I landed on the right person, it was like she was part of me, and I was part of her, you know, we just had such an awesome rhythm. And I never had jealousy around her relationship with my kids, even though I know that at times they told her things they didn’t tell me. And she always kept their secrets.
And to this day, they tell me did Nancy never tell you XYZ? And she didn’t. And she was their confidant, just really amazing, amazing relationships, but I was never jealous of it. And I was just so grateful.
One of the things that happened when I was going through that process of being a mom and having my kids really love Nancy often a little bit more than they love me, I think, is that I attended a lecture by an incredible psychologist in Cape Town, Julie Davies, who I’m sure many of our moms might have heard of. And she did some very well known studies on babies and nannies. And she did infant observations with them as well, which was, which is really interesting.
But one of the things that came up was that when nannies change and leave, there is a real fracture and trauma for little ones. And she feels very, very strongly around that almost risk for little babies not being adequately recognized by the kind of what we call in Cape Town, the southern suburbs, moms who, you know, kind of are very quick to hire and fire. And I think that it’s important that we address that, that we just talk about, you know, how the respect for that relationship between your nanny and the baby and how you need to protect that and your child’s emotional world.
Absolutely, Meg. So, so important and critical. And I think it goes back to what I said at the beginning about that attachment, that feeling safe, feeling loved, the familiarity.
You know, it’s, there’s no perfect nanny, just like there’s no perfect partner. And what you said about that dance is so important. So, I always encourage parents, try and figure this out, you know, it’s the 80-20 principle.
We, as long as you love 80% about each other, then you figure out the rest, because your baby’s emotional well-being is at stake. And yeah, it’s so, so critical. I always say to parents, if your nanny had to leave as well, and you didn’t, you know, it wasn’t a dismissal, have a photo book for your child, even if they’re pre-verbal, you know, that you can look and talk about her so that it’s just, it’s not just that she disappeared overnight.
Yeah. And we do see that, unfortunately, that the nanny doesn’t clean as well as the parents want, you know, it’s what is the most important thing at this stage of your little one’s life? Is it a clean house or is it, I’m safe, I’m loved, I’m well cared for, I’m played with, and the ironing doesn’t happen? Absolutely. And so, I mean, I think that that’s one of the things that we’ve kind of highlighted here is that, as a hazard, is that you absolutely can’t just hire and fire, you need to respect that emotional world.
But there must be other mistakes that, as mums, we can make. And, you know, in your mind, what is the kind of top mistakes that mums do make when it comes to their nannies and so on? This episode is brought to us by ParentSense, the all-in-one baby and parenting app that help you make the most of your baby’s first year. Don’t you wish someone would just tell you everything you need to know about caring for your baby? When to feed them, how to wean them, and why they won’t sleep? ParentSense app is like having a baby expert on your phone guiding you to parent with confidence.
Get a flexible routine, daily tips, and advice personalized for you and your little one. Download ParentSense app now from your app store and take the guesswork out of parenting. Now Meg, so I think the top thing I see over and over again is, and I think it’s because this relationship happens within the domestic environment, in our own homes, we don’t take it as seriously as we do our own workplace.
We don’t see ourselves as an employer of a nanny and that there are actual rules and regulations governing that, you know. So I have five ways of job satisfaction, which I chat to mums about and it’s in my book, which really will help both of you know, a good relationship protects both of you. So the first thing is a contract.
So this is mandated in South African law by the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and you need to give your nanny a UIF statement every month and you need to register, I mean, sorry, a pay slip and register for UIF. So the contract is, you know, just a basic and I’m quite amazed at how few mums have contracts in place and they are to protect both you and your nanny and they outline the basic things like leave, times of work, expectations, you know, just pay, what happens if I work on a Saturday and a lot of these things creep in. If we haven’t discussed them before, that’s when they creep in.
So a contract sets you out on a great footing. Then the next thing is a job description. So I always say to mums, imagine you employed in a new job and you’re just not quite exactly sure what are the expectations of me? You know, how much housework am I expected to do? And mums out there and dads listening, remember your nanny might revert to house cleaning because we all have that desire to show this is what I did today.
You know, when you’re at home on maternity leave and your husband walks in and says, gosh, what did you do all day? And it’s the last time he asks that question. It’s the same for nanny. They want to feel, they want to sometimes show you that I have done this, this and that.
So you really need to be explicit. We have a contract we’re happy to send out to anyone. And at the back is a whole list of kind of house cleaning tasks that you can tick off and discuss and say, I only want you to wash the clothes, not I only want you to clean the kitchen every day, not the whole house.
And that is absolutely vital. Chat to your partner, ask, have a discussion together, which are the big, big areas in the house and see, is that something that you expect your nanny to do or not? Then the third thing, I think before you get onto the third thing, that job description is so important. And, you know, as you said, we need to behave like an employer.
I mean, I employ people, you employ people, most of us who listening to the podcast, I’m sure at some point have been in managerial positions and had to lead teams. And so you would never have somebody come on without knowing what you’re expecting of them. But I do think in that, you know, and I remember I had an Excel sheet that had a two-week cycle for my house.
And within those two-week cycles, there were certain things like every first Monday, let’s say, and beds have to be changed. And I think that was every Monday, but there were things, you know, it happened every second week, like ovens getting cleaned or whatever. One of the things that I think is very important is that even when you’ve got this full list, which can look, I mean, it is a full-time job, you know, for any of us who’ve run a home, no, you do need to also set your expectations around priorities.
So if you have only one domestic worker in your house, which most people would never have a nanny and a domestic worker, if you only have one domestic worker, you need to tell her what your primary concern is. Is it the cleanliness of the house? Because you’re at home as well, and therefore looking after your child, you know, and so it’s just that she’s the stopgap for looking after your child? Or is it that her primary job is looking after your child? In which case, if the ironing doesn’t get done today, the ironing doesn’t get done today because your child is the priority. And I think that’s often where things can go wrong in that job description.
Well, I mean, picture the nanny with the baby on her back trying to clean the windows. It just, it’s incongruent to me that, you know, we know how important stimulation is, how important that bond is, and yet the nanny is feeling real pressure to kind of be everything, do everything, and I know I don’t get that done on the weekend, right? So, and just the point that you’ve brought up such an important thing about domestic workers, and so back to who do you choose? If you have a great domestic worker and you have that trust, you have that gut instinct, the relationship, then just upskill her to be the nanny. And then get a, maybe you can get a once a week person who comes to help with cleaning and ironing, deep, you know, deep cleaning and ironing.
So, sometimes you can do that, just get once a week person and then upskill your domestic worker because those things I spoke about in the beginning, the passion, the trust, the character are way more important than the sort of skills that we bring. Absolutely, good. So, our first one, our first tip is get yourselves, you know, legally correct, get those contracts done.
Second one is watch that job description. What are your next three points? So, the next one is performance feedback. So, you know, again, it’s kind of in the domestic space where you have one day and it turns the next day and week after week and month after month, and then you sit down and realize that at work, you really value feedback from your employer, right? You want to know when am I doing a great job? Where am I not, you know, meeting your expectations? And so, I used to actually take out our nanny at least twice a year, preferably every quarter to spur for lunch, and there’s always child care to spur, so she would feel special and it’s a neutral territory.
And then we would just go through the job description, ask her what is she doing really well, where would she like to grow, which is my fourth point, but it’s a different space to be able to give that feedback. And remember always to give feedback with positive things, then where she can improve, ask her first where does she think she can improve, and then always close off with positive again, like we just are so grateful for you, our child loves you, they light up when you walk in the door. So, that performance feedback and just put it in the diary, so important.
A lot of moms have confided in me that they feel that the nanny listens to dad more than mom, so maybe you want your partner part of that conversation, like as a real family meeting, I really think that’s awesome. But yeah, don’t, you know, it’s this ideal that we want the nanny to feel like the family, and I 100% agree, but I’ve also seen that’s where the struggles come in a bit, where you don’t have these regular meetings, where you’re not going back to what is this before, you know, this job description look like? And how can we grow you? So, that’s my fourth point. Imagine working in a job for 20 or 30 years and never being sent on training, never being asked, how do you want to improve? What are your dreams? And just as an example, you know, with our nanny, she finished her matric, she got a driver’s license, and she started a little business on the weekend, and we supported her through that.
So, so critical to think, this is a person, you know, what other passion does she have? Moms and dads, allowing them to grow veggies in your garden. So many nannies live where they can’t grow basic veggies and things. So, just thinking, asking her, what would she like to do? How would she like to grow? I mean, there’s things even like swimming lessons for nannies now, there’s cooking lessons for nannies, first aid, and our nanny and me is all around play training.
So, that’s critical. And, you know, La, it’s also a continuity plan that we can have for our nannies, because there will probably come a time when you don’t need them to look after children anymore, and your house is becoming more empty, or like we did, we moved away. And so, we had to find Nancy something new.
And what we had done while she was working with us was, we’d always known that she’d wanted to do some sort of office and secretarial work. And so, we’d skilled her up in that. And she now is actually running the Carleton Hair Academy’s telephone lines and, you know, and kind of administration on the front of office.
And she’s just amazing. And so, yeah, I mean, you want to make sure you’re skilling them up to do something that gives them, you know, kind of a little bit of a career as well. Absolutely, Meg.
So, you know, it speaks to two things. The first is she might always want to be a nanny. And so, you upskilling her and her CV gets better, and you help her find that next job.
Or you see, you know, that you have the opportunity to develop this person who contributes to the economy, her community, her own children. So often, nannies are single parents. They’re living in the country with the worst disparity in the world.
So, it’s actually a unique opportunity to also grow and develop her and where she wants to go. And at the end of the day, that’s going to pay dividends for your relationship and her relationship with your little one. Absolutely.
So, five ways to get job satisfaction for your nanny. Make sure that she has got a contract. Make sure you’ve got a clear job description.
Give them performance appraisals. Make sure you’re growing them. And what is the fifth one? It’s obvious, but I think it’s worth saying, and that is care.
So, how do you show appreciation? What’s her love language? What do you pay her? You know, because if your nanny is constantly trying to find another job on weekends to supplement her income, she’s not going to show up as her best self for your little one. And how do you show appreciation financially, the way you treat her? You know, Meg, unfortunately, in our country, there’s still nannies who are told to use separate cutlery, crockery, toilets. And I just, I can’t put that together with this person who you should want to love and kiss and cuddle your little ones, because that’s what they need for their development.
And in the same voice, you’re saying, please use these cups. So, I have to say that because I’m so passionate about, you know, we have to treat these women like professionals, like we want to be treated at work. If you feel like just a number in your working environment, how does that relate to your job performance? How excited are you to get to work on a Monday? No, it’s very, very important.
And I think, you know, what’s incredible, and this goes for any work, anywhere, I mean, any of us will identify with that, is when you feel valued, and when you feel really important in a role, you just give so much more. And, you know, I think that for me is a big takeaway from this conversation is that, you know, all of this sounds like you are doing your nanny a service, giving her a contract, a job description, performance appraisals, but it’ll come back in terms for your baby, because she’ll be happy in her job, love your child. And that’s ultimately, what is your number one priority? You know, I know that we’ve spoken about making nannies happy, but at the end of the day, it is all about our children.
And this is almost an indirect way of kind of securing amazing care for your child. Amazing, Laa. Well, you’ve given us so much to think about.
I think we are massively privileged in South Africa, and actually across all social sectors where we are able to actually have other women take care of our children. And I think that is incredible. If there are any nannies and au pairs listening, you have the most important role for many of us, you know, in our children’s lives.
Podcast
