[0:00 – 1:50]
Meg Faure: We’re back today with two of our favourite guests, Zoe Brown, new twin mum and media personality, and Tasha Perrault, a twin specialist and neonatal nurse. Zoe’s twins are now five weeks old and today we’re going to dive into two of the most common and also potentially confusing topics in the early weeks of parenting and those are crampy tummies and breastfeeding decisions. If your baby is fussy after feeds, struggling with gas and reflux or crying spells, then this is an episode you don’t want to miss.
We unpack the real digestive reasons behind uncomfortable babies. We talk about the difference between lactose intolerance and cow’s milk protein allergy. We also talk a little bit about little drops that your baby can take to help and so we have a lot of solutions there for those niggly little ones.
Tasha also actually talks a little bit about the role of body work and we’ll talk about what that is. It’s a hands-on approach that can really bring relief to little ones with tension and feeding issues, so let’s talk about that and then we also come on to the topic of breastfeeding and we’re really going to be looking at the honest question about how do you know when it’s time to stop. For many moms it’s not the most wonderful experience.
They may not be loving it, might be counting the days down to when they can stop because there are real physical, emotional and practical sides of breastfeeding and so we talk a little bit about that especially in the context of twins. So today you’re going to learn about the hidden causes of crampy gassy tummies and when to seek help. You’re going to learn about what body work really means and how it really is an amazing strategy for your baby’s comfort and then we’re also going to talk more about making confident and informed choices about breastfeeding.
So this is an amazing episode. It’s real, it’s reassuring and once again just absolutely an amazing conversation with our very real mommy Zoe and Tasha as well. So don’t go away, tune in. It is a great episode.
[1:50 – 2:33]
Announcer: Welcome to Sense by Meg Faure, the podcast that’s brought to you by Parent Sense, the app that takes guesswork out of parenting. If you’re a new parent then you are in good company. Your host Meg Faure is a well-known OT, infant specialist and the author of eight parenting books.
Each week we’re going to spend time with new moms and dads just like you to chat about the week’s wins, the challenges and the questions of the moment. Subscribe to the podcast, download the Parent Sense app and catch Meg here every week to make the most of that first year of your little one’s life and now meet your host.
[2:35 – 2:49]
Meg Faure: Welcome back mums and dads. We are delighted to have you join us here again today on Sense by Meg Faure and today we have a regular guest back with us. I love that I can call her that. Zoe Brown is our mom of twins. Welcome Zoe.
[2:50 – 2:54]
Zoe Brown: It’s so great to be back Meg. I’m looking forward to these chats.
[2:54 – 3:18]
Meg Faure: I know and I’m just loving following your journey as I hear them come out each week. So I’m loving this and of course we’ve got our twin expert Tasha Perrault with us as well. So welcome Tasha.
Tasha Perrault: Thank you. So happy to be here as well.
Meg Faure: Brilliant. So if anybody’s looking for twin support, Tasha is just amazing with that. Her practice is based in Cape Town. Tasha, just before we get started, where do people get hold of you if they want to chat to you after an episode like this?
[3:19 – 3:46]
Tasha Perrault: Yeah, so we have an Instagram page. So we are called the Well Mother and Child Clinic. So our Instagram handle is @wmc_clinic. So you can find us on Instagram and our Instagram page is quite active. So we have loads of videos and posts kind of weekly. So you can send us an email. So that’s the best way to get to us.
[3:47 – 4:09]
Meg Faure: Brilliant. That’s fabulous. And Tasha has also got an incredible breastfeeding course, which we’re going to be loading into the app fairly soon as well. So moms watch out for that because our courses have gone live and you can find all the courses in the app and Tasha’s will be there soon. So without further ado, let us jump into the life of a mom of twins. Zoe, tell us a little bit about the wins, the challenges and the questions of the moment.
[4:10 – 5:53]
Zoe Brown: Oh, I feel like I’m winning because they’re five weeks old. They’re still alive. They are thriving. I’vestill got my sanity to some point. But I mean, there’s been some challenges. So I think let’s start with the wins. Hubby is back at work full time in the office. My best friend came to stay with me for a week and I had a week by myself and that for me, I think when I realised being by myself with these babies, you find your own grooves. As incredible as it is to have that extra set of hands, to have that support, to help with cleaning bottles and all of that, when I was alone by myself, I found that the bond and the way I interacted with the babies were very different. And you kind of just, you know, you need to be thrown in the deep end to find your feet and to find your rhythm. But it’s been really lovely that I’ve been able to have all the support. Mom is here. My mom arrived in Australia a couple of days ago, so she is also helping. Weirdly enough, last night, one of the babies became a bit niggly. We are battling breaking winds every now and then, more then than every now. And so I went into the lounge to just try and give hubby some sleep. And I was in the room and she came out. She’s like, no, no, no, give him to me. So I handed baby over at half-past three this morning. And when it was time to feed the next one, because they’ve been very good at feeding quite regularly and we feed them together. So when it was time to feed the other baby, I got up, went into the lounge and she’s like, no, no, no, give him to me. So I handed both babies over to my mom and we got some extra sleep. So for me, that was a big win.
[5:54 – 6:05]
Meg Faure: Yeah. And that is, it’s incredible how important that support is and particularly from your own mom. Tasha, I’m sure that you also have that recommendation that especially with twin babies, you really do need that other set of hands.
[6:06 – 7:14]
Tasha Perrault: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, I think twin moms and parents put a very high expectation on themselves and sometimes an unrealistic expectation on themselves. You know, I think a lot of twin parents think they’re expected to do it all by themselves, that they have to do it all by themselves. But I mean, the reality is settling one baby is difficult, but obviously when you have two babies, like settling, feeding, settling, changing two babies by yourself is a mammoth, mammoth task. So I think a lot of twin parents feel like if they’re not coping, doing it by themselves, that they’re failing. Like, why can’t I manage? But I mean, the reality is like, phew, it’s a hard job. So yeah, I mean, having those extra pair of hands is absolutely imperative. I mean, obviously family and friends, you know, that’s the, that’s the, what the key or the best option, I guess. But I mean, unfortunately, a lot of families don’t have a lot of family around. And sometimes, you know, as you say, we have to kind of buy our village sometimes and we have to actually pay for support and night nurses and extra pair of hands. But yeah, it’s just managing those expectations of, yeah, I shouldn’t have to be able to do it by myself because it is, it’s a big job, but it’s a difficult one.
[7:14 – 7:29]
Meg Faure: And of course, in years gone by, Tasha, it wasn’t supposed to be that we brought babies and children up in a vacuum. We were supposed to be in a village. So yeah, and my heart always goes out to people who don’t have that support because they don’t have a village.
[7:30 – 8:16]
Tasha Perrault: Yeah, exactly. And I think also because, you know, we live in a world now where so many people live overseas. I mean, so you’re a prime example of that. You know, you left your country, you left your friends and your family to go live in another country. And yeah, you don’t have that obviously close support with your family there. So I mean, it’s so amazing while you have it. And I’m sure you’re making the absolute most of it. But yeah, it is a challenge when they leave, I’m sure. It will be a challenge.
Zoe Brown: It is.
[8:16 – 10:11]
Zoe Brown: But I have to say, we’ve built such a beautiful community here in Sydney. And when obviously when I realised I was going to be by myself for a few days, I kind of just, everyone that said, let us know when you need help. I was like, I’m going to need you the week that I’m by myself. And I followed through and I said to them, are you free to come for coffee today? And I scheduled a different person for each day that I was alone. So at least that I had the morning, I told them come in the mornings. That’s kind of when my own energy is at its best. And it was so lovely. The one day I was sitting and we were just, the babies were playing ping pong. I got the one up, settled, put him down, the next one. Got that one up, fed, settled, then the same one woke up. So it’s, it’s, it’s been ping pong some days and other days they’re in sync. So we just flow with it. But that day a friend arrived at the perfect time. And she, as she walked into the door, I’m like, hi, here’s the baby. I just need a shower. I went and I had a shower. But I think saying that, you know, a lot of twin parents are more receptive to help. I think sometimes parents with one baby, they think they can do it all. And they’re like, no, no, it’s fine. You know, let me get you a cup of tea and I’m fine. I’ll hold the baby. With twin parents. Yeah. The minute you see somebody, it’s like, yep, here’s a baby. You can please help me.
Tasha Perrault: Yeah. So, so you’re right. I think a lot of twin parents are, yeah, they’re so, so eager to get help because you absolutely need it.
Zoe Brown: I’ve been in that position where I’ve gone to visit friends and I mean, you’re not going to ask someone if you can hold their baby, but if they offer, I always jump at the opportunity to say yes. So I was like, yeah, take a baby. Please hold the baby. I’m just going to quickly do this. I just want to quickly take the, the, the recycling downstairs. But it was just so, yeah, it was just so nice that I was able to have every day someone come and pop in. And it was so special because on the one day, she’s a friend from church and she came in and she said, okay, right, Zoe, you go nap. I’m going to take care of the kids. And I think I had so much energy. I was like, I’m not going to say no to someone telling me to go for a nap. So that was a win.
Meg Faure: Yeah. Well done for listening to it.
[10:12 – 10:29]
Meg Faure: Brilliant. Yeah. And so Zoe, tell us a little bit about their development at the moment. It’s like really early days. At this moment, they should be making eye contact and turning towards sounds and will in the next couple of weeks start to smile. Have you seen any of those?
[10:30 – 11:17]
Zoe Brown: I can’t wait for the smiles, but yes, I’ve noticed Jordan, our baby A, he started showing signs that he was ready to be awake a little bit longer before Luke. Luke pretty much only started doing that this week. Jordan started last week. So we just, I just keep him awake a little bit more, keep him stimulated with the high contrast, the black and white books and cards and just, just a 10, 15 minutes. And then he’s over it. And they are showing that they’re ready to, to interact. I can see the eye contact every now and then the eyes go a bit squint. So I just have to like close the eyes and be like refocus. And then they open their eyes and yeah, they’re still really, really sweet boys. We’re just struggling every now and then with the wind.
[11:18 – 11:26]
Meg Faure: So talk to us a little bit about that. Is it usually after a feed that they’re niggly or is it at a certain time of day that they’re niggly?
[11:28 – 12:22]
Zoe Brown: You see like with Luke, our baby B, it’s a constant, he’s constantly grunting and pushing. And he is also the one that we, we track the amount of wet nappies and soiled nappies that they produce. And at first he was the one that gave us the least amount of soiled nappies. Like he would only go for a poo every second day. And since we’ve been tracking and really focussing on it, he’s actually been, you know, a little bit more regular than the one that’s not grunting so much. So he definitely has a little bit more of a, we do bicycle kicks and we just make sure we get that little belly because it’s sometimes rock hard. We just try to do a little bit of massaging. And that seems to be helping, but he’s really struggling. My mom arrived and she brought us some of those Telament drops, which I’ve been adding to their little bottles. And I think that has made the world’s difference. Can’t find it here.
[12:23 – 12:40]
Meg Faure: So I’d love to approach this from two angles, Tasha. And the one angle is the digestive, which I’d love you to take. And then I’ll talk about the neurological because both of those actually have an impact on whether or not a baby’s niggly. So Tasha, what are your thoughts on kind of niggly tummies, passing wind and so on?
[12:40 – 14:37]
Tasha Perrault: Yeah, I mean, gosh, I can talk for days on this. I spend so much of my day talking about winds and fussy babies and how to get rid of the winds. And also just kind of normalising it. You know, babies, as we’ve spoken in our previous conversations for the first couple of weeks are quite settled. And then after two weeks and potentially can last up until about 12 weeks where their little tummies are really unsettled. So you think, you know, us as mammals, we were born very immature. So you think of other animals, they’re born. You know, if we look at a cow or, you know, like a calf or a little foal, they’re born, they arrive and they really start walking. Whereas you think us as mammals, we take a whole year to actually develop. And by the time they’re a year, then we start walking. So for the first 12 weeks, their little digestive systems are so immature and they really, really struggle to, you know, obviously digest that milk. So almost after every feed, it’s a big event for their little tummy. But, you know, there is kind of levels of normal, which we kind of expect, but also sometimes babies are excessively uncomfortable and excessively windy. And that has got to do with various factors. So the first one that I can think of is potentially how babies feed. So, you know, sometimes babies, if they’re not on the breast correctly or if they’re bottle feeding, they’re not latched onto the breast or the bottle properly, they can swallow a lot of air. And a lot of people think, yes, well, my baby’s windy and it’s my fault because I’m not getting the winds out and I’m not burping them effectively, but it’s actually the way they’re sucking. So one of the reasons why babies don’t suck or why they bring in a lot of air is because the latch is wrong and the latch is wrong because of the tongue function. Potentially babies have got tongue ties, potentially babies have got oral ties, you know, and their lip ties as well. And because they’re not creating a proper vacuum or suction on the breast or the bottle, they’re actually getting a lot of wind in. So that’s why it’s so important if you do have a particularly fussy baby to actually…
[14:37 – 15:15]
Announcer: This episode is brought to us by Parent Sense, the all-in-one baby and parenting app that help you make the most of your baby’s first year. Don’t you wish someone would just tell you everything you need to know about caring for your baby? When to feed them, how to wean them and why they won’t sleep? Parent Sense app is like having a baby expert on your phone guiding you to parent with confidence. Get a flexible routine, daily tips, and advice personalised for you and your little one. Download Parent Sense app now from your app store and take the guesswork out of parenting.
[15:16 – 18:32]
Tasha Perrault: If you do have a particularly fussy baby to actually go, you know, if you’re breastfeeding, go to a lactation consultant. So somebody who can actually assess your baby’s latch and actually assess how they’re sucking or feeding consultant who can actually see how they’re sucking on the bottle, because that can make a huge difference to their comfort, but also can create a refluxy baby. So often babies who are not latched on properly, who are sucking in a lot of wind, they get very refluxy as well. So the first thing is obviously to assess how they’re feeding. Sometimes moms, the diet can affect the baby’s comfort level, but it’s, you know, mainly potentially if babies have got a severe cow’s milk protein allergy or sensitivity that can also make the baby’s tummies very uncomfortable. They get kind of mucousy poos, lots of cramps, lots of winds. Also babies struggle to digest the lactose in breast milk. So sometimes we actually recommend giving babies lactase enzymes before a feed to actually break down that lactose because some babies, not that they’re lactose intolerant, it’s just that they don’t have a lot of that lactase enzyme, which helps to break down the lactose. So in South Africa, we do have a product called Colief or Colix, which sometimes I do recommend, you put it in the bottle or you give it to the baby in a little bit of breast milk before a feed. And sometimes that can help a lot. So yeah, I think, you know, it is just kind of about normalising that discomfort. But if your baby is particularly uncomfortable, we actually need to kind of scratch below the surface and actually find out why. But a lot of babies also, it’s difficult because what they’re doing is they’re having to push their little poos out, but they’re trying to relax their anal sphincters at the same time. So they’re pushing and they’ve got to relax. And that whole mechanism is really, really quite challenging for them. So there’s actually such a wonderful little tool, which we sell here in South Africa called a Windy. So essentially it’s like a little pipe. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it Zoe, but it’s a little pipe that you actually like pop up their little bum and you kind of stimulate their little anal sphincter. And then it actually releases the air because as you’ve said, you’ve been doing, which is great, the bicycling movements and pushing, pushing the winds out and the massage. And it’s very satisfying when you get a fart out and everybody’s very excited about it. But sometimes you can see little faces going really red and they pushing, pushing, pushing, and they just can’t get the wind out. And this little Windy, it’s awesome. So yeah, you pop it in, you twizzle around and it actually releases all this air and you’ve got to stand back because sometimes there’s a lot of poo that follows through as well. So yeah, that’s helpful. And then just the last thing also, which helps for the discomfort is doing some kind of body work. So body work can potentially be chiro, it can be osteopathy, physio. So, you know, a lot of babies can be uncomfortable, not because of the wind, but also because there’s some kind of tension in their little bodies as well. So they’re trying to get rid of the wind. There’s lots of tension in their bodies. And I recommend any baby, you know, even born vaginally or via caesarean section, that they have some kind of body work within the first few weeks of their life, because that can really help to kind of get rid of those very deep, well, the tension in their body, but also the kind of winds and the trapped air that have been sitting there for a long time.
[18:33 – 19:16]
Meg Faure: Yeah. And all of that is absolutely brilliant advice, Tasha. I want to pick up on a couple of those points. So I just want to go back to the lactose intolerance, which Tasha alluded to. And that’s actually a lot of what causes those frothy explosive poos is actually that your little one’s lactose intolerant. And it’s a very specific type of lactose intolerance. The real kind of dysfunctional lactose intolerance is exceptionally rare. It’s almost, we hardly see it in little babies who’ve got that, actually don’t put on weight. They’re very ill babies. But most babies have a degree of primary lactose intolerance, which just means, as Tasha said, that they are born with not enough lactase enzyme to break down the lactose, which is what makes…
[19:16 – 20:53]
Meg Faure: …things so explosive. And the only way to build up lactase enzyme naturally is to feed, is its exposure to lactose. And that’s why, you know, feeding on milk is so important. And actually, lactose is in all milk. So people say, oh, put your child into goat’s milk, which we definitely don’t recommend. But somebody says that the reality is that doesn’t matter what type of milk it is, human milk, if you know, goat’s milk, cow’s milk, they all contain lactose. So the reality is that any milk will have, unless it’s a soya, obviously will actually have some lactose in it. So you know, having exposure to lactose is fine. The one thing that I do sometimes recommend, and Tasha, I’d love your opinion on this as well, is that if a little one’s very uncomfortable, it can sometimes be due to overfeeding. Just the fact that they are having, like, and this is usually with moms, and probably not your case, Zoe, but usually with moms when they’re feeding almost consistently, like they’re kind of every hour and a half, they’re saying, my baby’s hungry, and they’re just in this feeding cycle, feeding, niggle, feeding, niggle. And that’s sometimes what I do say to moms is space those feeds a little bit up to, you know, three to four hours, because it just allows their body to be able to build up that lactase, get rid of the lactose, and actually kind of cope a little bit better with milk. So overfeeding can sometimes be a thing. And as Tasha said, occasionally, we see cow’s milk protein allergy. And actually the best way to test that, Zoe, is to just cut out milk for yourself for about a week and just take out dairy products and see if that makes a difference. And those two things are things that I often do recommend. Tasha, would you be aligned with that?
[20:53 – 22:03]
Tasha Perrault: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s, you know, just talking about the overfeeding, I think it’s really important to educate parents to actually differentiate between signs of hunger and signs of discomfort. Because a lot of the time you think your baby’s hungry, but a lot of the time they’re actually uncomfortable. And it kind of looks the same because they’re kind of rooting around and they’re kind of looking to suck and they’re wriggling and jiggling and you’re like, well, I fed you an hour ago, but you looked like you could be hungry. And the reality is, if you put them on the breast, or you give them a bottle of milk, they’ll definitely feed because feeding is comfort, and they’re feeling uncomfortable and they’re looking for comfort, and obviously they’re going to feed. So, you know, it is a fine line. Yes, we want to kind of feed on demand, and we want to kind of feed when our babies look like they’re hungry. But as the time goes by, it’s important that you kind of can read your baby and see, yes, they actually are hungry. These are the hunger cues. Or actually, hold on a moment. Let me just hang back. Let me try and settle my baby. These are the settling techniques. Let’s give your baby a dummy, and then they’ll settle. If you gave a baby a dummy who was really hungry, they wouldn’t be satisfied by that dummy. I think a lot of parents are worried about, oh, well, my baby, let me give them a dummy, and they won’t want to feed. But if the baby’s hungry, they’re definitely hungry.
[22:03 – 22:04]
Zoe Brown: Absolutely.
[22:04 – 23:53]
Zoe Brown: Notice that, because we’re still on the feed them every three hours schedule during the day. And Tasha, we took your recommendation based on our last conversation to, after 7pm, let them wake us. And we’ve been getting, yeah, weirdly enough, we’re not getting the long stretches as frequently as we had hoped. But it is coming. It’s slowly getting there. We get three and a half hours. The other morning, we got four and a half hours. I was like, wow, this feels incredible. But pretty much, I think Luke is going through a bit of a growth spurt. So he is like clockwork. Every three hours, he is ready to have his next feed. Jordan is starting to show he is ready to, he’s showing the longer awake windows, but also he is being stretched a little longer. But we’ve just decided when there’s two of us, we’re going to, when the one shows, and it’s been three hours, they’re ready for the next feed, we wake the other one. And there is nothing worse than waking a peacefully sleeping baby during the day. But I know I have to. It’s just, oh, in the evenings, we leave them. In the middle of the night, myself and my husband, we decided we’re going to teamwork, feed them together, put them down together. And that has helped and worked for us. But when it comes to that four o’clock feed, four, five a.m. feed, depending on how our schedule realigns, we don’t wake them. We let them wake us. And if it’s just one baby waking up and the other baby waking up an hour later, we kind of leave that. And that’s also been an opportunity for me to give my husband that extra little bit of sleep before he leaves for work. And I’m able to slowly feed each of them individually because I know I get my gap somewhere else.
[23:53 – 24:03]
Meg Faure: Very good. Very good juggle you’re doing there. That’s one of the ones I recommend is that, you know, if you can, one of you needs to have a sleep in in the mornings and hopefully on the weekends it can start. It can be you, maybe not just your husband.
[24:03 – 24:04]
Zoe Brown: So it is pretty fair.
[24:04 – 24:21]
Zoe Brown: Yeah, just going back to the discomfort of babies and winds and all of that. Also, one of the reasons is I know, am I right in thinking you’re still topping up with a bit of formula Zoe?
[24:21 – 24:24]
Meg Faure: Pretty much fully just doing formula.
[24:24 – 24:59]
Zoe Brown: They having a bit of a, I find the reaction to my breast milk, I get more spit up from my breast milk. For me, it’s been very frustrating because I pump, I pump and then they just, the most spit ups comes from the breast milk. They seem to be better on the formula. And it’s been, you know, it’s a tough one deciding because I say to my husband, I’m, I’m ready to, to maybe stop breastfeeding. I did say I wanted to wait until my mom is here to see if that can help me maybe just find better balance between pumping. I’m struggling with the latches on me. So I have only been exclusively pumping and they seem to be doing better on the formula because when I do get bottles, I think throughout the entire day, they might get two bottles of breast milk from me. So they are pretty much 80% to 90% on formula.
[24:59 – 26:29]
Tasha Perrault: Yeah. So, I mean, I guess also again, if you find that the babies are excessively uncomfortable, really windy or their poos are doing all sorts of things, or obviously if they’re constipated, then it’s always worth checking in to see, okay, is there another formula that we can, that we can explore? Because there are some formulas that definitely make babies more uncomfortable than others. So there’s so many formulas out there. I’m not obviously familiar with the ones in Australia, but the ones that we have in South Africa, we always kind of tailor to exactly what, what the babies needs. And it’s so difficult making that decision by yourself. I mean, you go into a supermarket and there are just rows and rows and rows of formula. So it’s always good to check in, you know, with your paediatrician, your clinic sister to kind of see, okay, is this the right formula for me? But I mean, also in terms of the breastfeeding and bottle feeding, I mean, I think there’s so much emotion and, you know, guilt, some, some parents feel guilt, you know, like, gosh, should I carry on? Should I not carry on? But the reality is, I mean, you’ve got to find what works for you. And having twins is a full-time job. And there’s plenty of moms who mix feed or only formula feed and it’s, and it’s a journey, you know, it’s a journey.
Zoe Brown: Yep.
Tasha Perrault: You started off breastfeeding, you’re doing the pumping, you do the bottle feeding and you just kind of take the weeks as they come by. And eventually you’ll find a pattern that works for you.
[26:29 – 26:39]
Zoe Brown: Also found that, um, with the breastfeeding, when they do breast milk and we do a top-up formula, that that combination did not work for them.
[26:39 – 26:49]
Zoe Brown: But then I realised when I just give them breast milk, that’s actually when most of the spit ups been happening. So I just feel like it’s my breast milk.
[26:49 – 26:51]
Meg Faure: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.
[26:51 – 27:15]
Meg Faure: I mean, it’s, it is, as Tasha said, it’s such an emotive decision to decide, you know, between what’s best for your babies. The ultimate thing is that colostrum is so important and both your boys have had that. And, you know, so breastfeed for as long as you can. And then when you move on to bottle, then you just, you know, it’s, it’s just part of the journey. So definitely don’t, don’t have any angst about that. It’s, you know, it is a journey with twins.
[27:15 – 28:27]
Zoe Brown: Absolutely. Not, it’s not an easy feat. I mean, already the fact that you, yeah, provided breast milk to them for five weeks and you’ve been pumping. And I mean, that’s, you know, it’s. What was quite lovely is there’s a moms and babies group that I’ve attended two weeks now and the next one will be tomorrow and I’m going to take my mom along with. And I think I was just last week, I asked them about, you know, I’m so torn between stopping breastfeeding and continuing pushing through. It’s just this constant yo-yo. There’s days where the minute that breast pump gets put on my breast, it’s the, I absolutely hate that feeling. But then you see the milk that comes out and you’re like so proud of yourself. And it’s just such a, for me right now, a love hate relationship with expressing. But then you see the amount of milk you produce and then you’re like so proud of it. And you, you know, you give your baby the express breast milk and then they, that’s what they bring up the most. And you’re like, oh gosh, you know, it’s a little bit of a challenging one. But at the moms group last week, I kind of just asked the moms in the room, you know, who is, you know, who has decided to stop breastfeeding? What was that deciding factor for you and who’s pushing through and how are you pushing through? So it was wonderful to hear everyone’s take on it. I do find when you speak to the professionals here, they tend to be more pro breast. So it did feel kind of like, okay, maybe you’re not the person I need to speak honestly to. I’ll move on to someone else that’s more open to hearing, you know, that I am, they’re tending to lean towards more wanting to formula feed the boys because they’re not spitting up as much as with my breast milk.
[28:27 – 28:28]
Tasha Perrault: That opinion.
[28:28 – 29:55]
Tasha Perrault: But the reality is they’re not the ones at home with the twins, you know? So, but I always recommend, you know, that’s why, because it’s like a yo-yo of feeling, yes, I want to, yes, I don’t want to. That’s why I often recommend moms to wean off the breastfeeding journey or the pumping journey instead of, you know, some people say, what’s the best approach? Do I need to take the medication, stop everything, stop the hormones. And then I kind of stop. And then people think, oh my gosh, I’ve taken the medication and now I don’t want to do this. I actually want to carry on. So kind of slowly weaning down so that eventually you get to the point where you’re only pumping twice or you’re pumping once a day and then you think, okay, well, I’m pumping just once a day now. It’s not a great experience, but it’s 10 to 15 minutes. My baby’s getting some breast milk and then you can decide, okay, I’ve only got one pumping session. Do I want to give that one up or not? So yeah, the slow kind of transition of breastfeeding is better than the kind of one, the stopping at cold turkey.
[29:55 – 32:02]
Meg Faure: And, you know, I think also there’s a lot of topics in parenting that people get very polarised about. One of them is vaginal versus caesarean sections as an example, but another one is breastfeeding. And it’s hugely emotive where people have opinions on other people’s lives where they’re not really living it, you know, and I think it’s so important to maintain that perspective and also to understand why it is that medical professionals say, you know, kind of breast is best. And a lot of the conversation around exclusively breastfeeding to six months is directed at populations in the world where really it is best for babies. So, for instance, in parts of Africa where A, formula milk is super expensive, maybe they can’t get hold of it. And B, access to clean water is an issue. And the biggest killer of babies in Africa is diarrhoeal disease and so on. And so I think, you know, we have to understand the context where when we say breast is best for six months, exclusive breastfeeding, it is in the context and the World Health Organisation says that it is in the context of developing countries. And when you are in a developed world like you are and you are giving a formula milk that is done in the right proportions with clean water, formula is a very good choice as well. And knowing that inside of yourself allows you some freedom to go, OK, so this isn’t a part of my journey that’s a make or break for my child’s emotional development, which ultimately is what this is all about. I might not be coping. Some moms actually find the whole breastfeeding thing just makes early parenting just too stressful. And that’s also OK to understand that. And then to move on to something that’s a very, very good second option. So, yeah, I think so, you know, my sense of you and it’s been like this since the very first meeting we had the very first podcast is that you are choosing to listen to voices in your in the room that are constructive for you. I mean, that came through very clearly with the midwife who coached you through delivering both naturally. You listen to voices that suit what you want to hear. And that’s actually what we need to do as mothers, because otherwise it’s going to be too noisy and too much anxiety. So, yeah, so I think good choice. And yeah, it is a journey.
[32:02 – 32:16]
Zoe Brown: Thank you for saying that. I think, you know, you often hear the “best is breast” phrase being thrown around, but they leave out that part, you know, in context of developing countries or any of that. So thank you for saying that.
[32:16 – 32:51]
Meg Faure: We also we have moms who are listening in our podcast through our Vodacom network in South Africa, and some of them might not have access or be able to afford the formula milk. And that’s where, you know, there is a real risk. And there breast really is best. You need to breastfeed in that context if you can’t afford to formula feed. So, you know, then it does become a health consideration in your situation. It really just isn’t. And, you know, I think one of the things that I’ve always said is, you know, breast is not necessarily always best, fed is best. And sometimes that means that you feed what you need to feed. And that’s important. Yeah.
[32:51 – 33:39]
Tasha Perrault: I see so many people in my practise who the breastfeeding journey has just been so it’s just, yeah, it’s just a roller coaster. And a lot of moms, when we get to that point where we talk about weaning off, when I say to them, you don’t have to breastfeed. Like, do you feel like you want to stop? And it’s almost like me giving them permission to actually admit the fact that they don’t enjoy it and they don’t want to do it. Just the weight of the world is just lifted off their shoulders. So, yeah, I mean, it really is. It’s a journey that everybody goes on. And some people that journey goes for two years, some people it goes for two weeks. It’s just so it’s so individualised. So, yeah. But as Meg said, you seem comfortable in your decisions and yeah, you’re doing what works for you. So it’s fantastic.
[33:39 – 33:40]
Zoe Brown: To a certain extent.
[33:40 – 34:07]
Zoe Brown: Anyone making this big decision to keep going, to push through or to stop, you do kind of seek some sense of approval, especially when there’s guilt attached to wanting to stop. And I even asked my husband, I was like, listen, would you mind? And he was like, it’s your body. You need to decide. It’s completely up to you. And I’m like, I just need someone to tell me it’s OK. You just need that external validation to a point.
[34:07 – 34:25]
Meg Faure: Can hear that Tasha and I are both in support of that, if that is the call that you’re making, I think. And sometimes it’s a weird thing needing permission because you don’t need permission, actually. You know, it is something that, you know, there’s so much noise in the space, in the world. And so sometimes you just need to hear that you’re doing a good job and make that call.
[34:25 – 35:20]
Tasha Perrault: Yeah. And I think so many moms look back because when you’re in it, you can’t really make sense of it because it’s so emotional and physical. And but when you look back, I think a lot of moms think, gosh, why did I struggle for so long? Like no one is enjoying that. I wasn’t enjoying it. My baby wasn’t enjoying it. My partner wasn’t enjoying it because he or she was, you know, feeling my stress and anxiety. So but also, I mean, the support from your husband is huge. You know, occasionally there are some partners who are like, come on, how hard can it be? You know, let’s just pump for a little bit longer. And so fortunately, there are some partners out there. So this is always a conversation I have in my antenatal classes. Have this conversation before you have your baby and talk about the breastfeeding journey and what would happen if it wouldn’t work out. How would you feel if I didn’t breastfeed our baby? How would you feel if we had to use formula? So, yeah, sometimes having that conversation before your baby’s born is also quite useful with your partner.
[35:20 – 36:02]
Meg Faure: So often what you’re told in an antenatal class is like this is all the gold standard. This is what you’ve got to stick with. And then the reality can be very disappointing afterwards. So I love the fact that you bring that into your antenatal class. Yeah, there is so much more to talk about, about the stage. And Zoe, we’re going to have to catch up again, I think probably in about two weeks time. And by then your little boys will probably be smiling because smiling is my favourite milestone. And it is a social milestone that emerges at around about six weeks. Now, your little ones, they came two weeks early, which means that you might see it at the age of about six, seven or even eight weeks. So don’t panic if you don’t see the smile at six weeks, but it’s such a special milestone, which you are going to be looking forward to now.
[36:02 – 36:24]
Zoe Brown: I’m looking forward to that. I mean, just the fact that they are gaining weight so beautifully, between 270 grammes and 350 grammes each a week has been, it’s been good. So they’re both a kilogramme over birth weight and they’re five weeks old today. So we are looking forward to all the little milestones that’s to come.
[36:24 – 36:25]
Tasha Perrault: Also important.
[36:25 – 37:25]
Tasha Perrault: To talk about milestones with twins is that you obviously you’ve got to remember that one potentially will do it before the other one. And it’s so difficult because if one smiles first and then other one takes two weeks later, you think, why isn’t the other one smiling? The other one’s smiling before the other one, but throughout their whole life, I mean, even now to this day, my twins obviously doing things differently, but every single milestone, you’ve just got to remember that they might not always do it at the same time. And obviously the one who’s a little bit later, you know, it’s nothing to worry about. So, yeah, but you, I’m sure you’re aware of that.
[37:25 – 37:45]
Zoe Brown: Grateful they’re not identical because they’re two little individual people. I’m not comparing Jordan to Luke and Luke to Jordan. It just so happens that Jordan being the, I can’t say the first born, but the baby that came out first, he started showing signs of being ready to be awake a lot sooner than Luke. And Luke’s finally there now. So I think Jordan will probably be the first one to crack a smile at me.
[37:45 – 38:14]
Meg Faure: We’ll definitely hear about that in our next episode. I’m absolutely certain. But thank you. And today’s was just such a fabulous episode because at five weeks, these are the main things that moms are actually dealing with, you know, like niggly babies, cramping, am I on the right milk? How do I decide to breastfeed or bottle feed? And so really, really pertinent topics. Thank you so much for allowing us into your life, Zoe, and for sharing so freely. And thank you, Tasha, for your wisdom. Amazing.
[38:14 – 38:23]
Zoe Brown: Thanks, Zoe. Thanks, Meg. I really, I’m getting so much from this. So I really appreciate it. I’m looking forward to our next conversation.
[38:23 – 38:24]
Meg Faure: Brilliant.
[38:24 – 38:27]
Meg Faure: Well, we will see you definitely in two weeks time. Thank you.
[38:28 – 38:37]
Announcer: Thanks to everyone who joined us. We will see you the same time next week. Until then, download Parent Sense app and take the guesswork out of parenting.
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