Meg (00:01.346)
The partner is often the forgotten figure in the story of new parenthood. While the spotlight falls on the mom and the baby, something quieter and maybe even more fragile is actually happening on the other side of the room. And that is the birth of a father. Today we are welcoming psychologist Dr. Ange Nisbola. And I have followed her for ages on Instagram. If you don’t follow her, please do go ahead and do so.
And she really does speak very often around this journey to parenthood together as couples. And for me, that was what today’s conversation was gonna be all about. So, and welcome tonight.
Dr Angelic Nespola (00:40.144)
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Meg (00:43.02)
It’s really lovely to have you. And of course, it’s incredibly topical. We’re in the middle of World Cup soccer at the moment. And just yesterday, Jeremy Doku from France actually bailed out of the World Cup to go and be with his wife who was giving birth. And unbelievably, because I could hardly get my head around it, the world erupted into conversation around how he should not have done that, how he should have stayed with his day job and that he wasn’t actually needed in the labor room. But of course, you can imagine that I was not very happy with this conversation.
And the reason is that so often when a baby arrives, the conversation centers entirely around the mother and the focus on her being able to do this on her own. But from a psychological perspective, so much more is happening and particularly for the father. And that’s what I really want to talk about today. So could you share a little bit about what’s going on for the dad during those early periods?
Dr Angelic Nespola (01:36.018)
So I think as psychologists, we know that becoming a parent is one of the most significant life transitions you will go through as an adult. And I think we know that there’s the birth of the baby, we know that you know there’s becoming a mom, but we don’t often think of what is happening systemically for the family. So it’s a becoming of a dad, becoming parents.
Within the system, we have the couple subsystem, but we’re now giving birth to a parental subsystem, and there’s a lot of shifts that take place for that to happen. for a dad, there is a massive identity transformation that happens, and I think a lot of us focus on mom, rightfully so. Mom has gone through a lot.
But we forget about dad and the transformation that he’s going through. And I was thinking about this. And if I had to put myself in that position, for a dad, he is most likely losing one of the most significant support people in his life in that moment. As it should be, mom’s focus is shifting towards the baby.
what we call primary maternal preoccupation, if I could use one in quotient terms. So that means that her entire focus, all of her energy is going towards baby. What happens for dad then is the energy that and the focus and the attention and all the love that he used to get shifts.
Meg (03:22.681)
Madge, you are not muted, so we could hear your husband and your conversation. No, okay. No problem. Okay. So can you mute? But yeah, just mute completely. Yeah, that’s great. That’s fine. That’s much better. And you can turn your camera off as well, Madge.
Dr Angelic Nespola (03:49.921)
Meg, where did where do we start, restart, or do we just restart completely?
Meg (03:50.794)
Okay.
So, yeah, sorry about that, Ange. That wasn’t ideal. So maybe let’s just start completely. I will, and then Madj will just cut out, she’ll put in my section around the Jeremy Doku and then I will just go straight into the question, okay? All right, sorry about that. Well, I’ll repeat the question so that you’ve got context, okay? All right, thanks.
Dr Angelic Nespola (03:57.426)
Well, that’s nice.
Dr Angelic Nespola (04:10.917)
Your question.
Dr Angelic Nespola (04:14.801)
Okay, so can I dive into the answer?
Mon repeat, okay. Clearly.
Meg (04:22.069)
So when a baby arrives, the conversation almost always centers on the mother. And of course, rightfully so, because she is going through matricence, which there is a lot of focus about. But from a psychological perspective, there is a lot going on for the partner in those first few weeks. And yet we often miss it. So can you share a little bit about why we miss it and also what is going on for him?
Dr Angelic Nespola (04:45.777)
So the transition to parenthood is recognized by psychologists as one of the most significant developmental shifts that an adult will go through. And this is both for mom and for dad. We often focus on mom, but we know that there’s also the birth of dad. This human is becoming a dad, his role is shifting, and with that, there is a major identity transformation that comes into play.
So for mom, but also for dad. If we think about it systemically from a family systems perspective, we have the parental subsystem that needs to emerge. So the couple subsystem was there, but now with the birth of baby, everything needs to shift and we need to form a parental subsystem. And that means that there’s a renegotiation of roles, there’s
a renegotiation of identity and that’s the identity transformation that I was speaking about. So there’s a lot of change that happens for dad. One of the things that I’d like to highlight is that rightfully so
Mom’s focus is on baby, and we call that maternal preoccupation. Primary maternal preoccupation is Winicosan terms, where mom’s focus and all of her energy needs to be directed at baby, and it should be like that. That’s a healthy way to form attachments and to form that bond. But what does that mean for dad? Dad is losing.
Support and and likely one of the primary and most significant support structures in his life is shifting because mom is now focused on baby. Winnicott says that mom holds baby and dad needs to hold mom. But we need to ask ourselves who holds dad in this time. So this is all healthy for attachment, but it must be a massive strain on dad.
Dr Angelic Nespola (06:53.039)
And research has shown us, you know, dads do describe feeling immense joy and pride, and they want to support this process. But for them, there is a feeling of anxiety, there is immense pressure. And we know that men have been socialized to be strong, to suppress their emotions, and so very often they tend to suffer in silence.
And they don’t verbalize this because they’re trying to hold it all together.
Meg (07:23.597)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just listening to you articulate that takes me back to the early days of all of my three children. I think I was so preoccupied with my children and also so preoccupied with my journey that I probably never actually fully identified what Philip must have been going through.
It was only years later when I kind of started to realize the number of casualties in our family, in our circle of friends, in terms of their marriages. There were a lot of marriages that quite simply did not survive this period. And what does the research actually tell us about what happens in a partnership and how serious is the risk to the marriage if it is really unaddressed?
Dr Angelic Nespola (08:07.087)
Yeah, so the research and and what comes to mind is research by John Gottman, and the research shows that there is a significant decline in marital satisfaction. I think it was around two-thirds, roughly, two-thirds of couples reported marital dissatisfaction within the first year of conceiving of becoming parents. So I think
What I want to highlight there is that a lot of this is normal because I think couples go into panic. You know, what’s wrong with us? We’re not doing it right, we’re maybe not suited for each other. But this is a massive monumental life transformation that you’re going through. On top of that, your nervous system is stretched, you’re exhausted, you you know, going through an identity transformation as well. There’s so much going on.
So I think it’s important to maybe get the message out there that yes, there might be some bumps in the road. Research shows there is some marital satisfaction, but it’s it’s it’s it’s short lived. If you use the opportunity, and this is what John Gottman then goes on to say in his research, and this is the good news that you don’t need major moments of connection, you don’t need major romances, but that couples, particularly in the newborn phase.
Need to turn towards each other. Take those moments, those opportunities when your partner’s trying to connect with you and and connect. And it could be something like your partner saying, Gosh, today was a really hard day. And not ignoring that. You know, connect and and be curious about that moment. Or maybe your partner says, Can you just sit with me a while? Those are little moments of connection. And what he says is that.
Meg (09:58.844)
and
Dr Angelic Nespola (10:00.495)
that is what predicts whether a relationship will survive. It’s not the conflict, it’s it’s the repair, we know that. But it’s also connecting in those micro moments and and parents will know the the moments really are micro. They they click and and they’re fleeting and and you’ve got to capitalize on those moments of connection.
Meg (10:13.013)
Yeah.
Meg (10:18.893)
And they are, know, one of the things that we did, and we did it from the time James was probably about seven weeks old. So very little still. And that was my first born is we had a date night once a week. So, you know, in the early days was super short. It was like just two hours. Like we’d run down to the, we’d get a babysitter and we’d run down to the ocean basket and come back. And we did, you know, it was kind of, it was kind of that sort of story. And then later on it became a movie or a longer dinner. But we’ve always done it. And all the way through when we had our children living at home, my kids are older now.
Dr Angelic Nespola (10:38.468)
Yes.
Meg (10:47.873)
And I do think it’s one of the things that actually saved our marriage or was protective. But you know, were a couple of other things and you know, mean, somebody once said to me very wisely in the beginning, don’t ever be critical about what your husband does when he tries to support you. Like just tell him he’s doing everything fabulously. If he puts a nappy on backwards, just don’t even mention it. Like just let it all go because otherwise you’re gonna end up.
Dr Angelic Nespola (10:54.447)
Yeah.
Dr Angelic Nespola (11:09.809)
Yeah.
Meg (11:13.513)
in doing it all yourself. If you’re critical, he will bail and he’ll go, okay, well, you know, I don’t know how to do this as well as you do. So why don’t you do it and I’ll do, you know, and that was very, very good advice. So how do we get dads involved? How do we get them? I mean, how do we work as a team? I mean, what does that really look like, I guess, in the first year?
Dr Angelic Nespola (11:35.154)
I think, and if I could maybe reflect, I had my my second baby at the end of last year, so it’s still very fresh. So I’m so grateful to be doing this conversation and to think about it a little bit as well. I think it’s making a decision that you’re not going to continuously correct and control. I think that impulse, at least for me, to try and correct or to step in and do it yourself, often comes from an anxiety.
Meg (12:05.132)
and
Dr Angelic Nespola (12:05.241)
you know, there’s there’s a lot of anxiety with becoming becoming a parent, particularly the first time. I think the second time I found it, you know, a lot, a lot more relaxed and you know, you can enjoy it a little bit more. But I think it’s a decision. I think it’s a decision to let him do what he needs to do, even if it’s not perfect. It’s okay.
Meg (12:23.381)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Angelic Nespola (12:26.669)
Ask yourself, is my child safe? You know, then it’s fine. And it’s just because he’s doing it wrong doesn’t mean or sorry, just because he’s doing it differently doesn’t mean he’s doing it wrong. I think we we need to make that shift. And I’ve often, you know, spoken to friends where they’ll say, You won’t believe, but my husband is doing put down better than me, so I’ve handed it over, or dad is doing this better. It often comes with the second child, I think because you’re able to let go a little bit more.
Meg (12:29.431)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Meg (12:37.515)
Yeah, absolutely.
Meg (12:52.875)
Yeah.
Dr Angelic Nespola (12:55.013)
But I do think you need to make that commitment before. Know that you are gonna have this impulse to want to jump in, thinking you know how to do it. But let dad be. Let him get involved. Because I think the moment we stop the process and don’t do it like that. Use that creed or you know, put the name on this way or whatever it is that that’s important to you. I think dad hears, I’m not doing it right, I don’t trust you. And naturally if that happens over and over, anyone is gonna stop.
Meg (13:01.708)
Yeah.
Dr Angelic Nespola (13:24.529)
pulling back. We’re gonna start isolating from the process and that has implications and ramifications for dad’s bonding with the baby. Dad will start to feel like he’s on the periphery and he’ll start feeling isolated. So yeah, that’s what comes to mind for me.
Meg (13:25.035)
Yeah, yeah.
Meg (13:33.206)
Yeah.
Meg (13:37.515)
Yeah.
Meg (13:42.304)
Amazing, very interesting. I think lots of fathers end up feeling like they’re a bit of a third wheel, particularly if mum is breastfeeding. I think breastfeeding is such an incredibly intimate experience between a mother and a baby. And it’s actually very exclusive because nobody else can do it. There are no other options. And so these dads end up feeling like a third wheel, that they kind of present, but they’re on the periphery. What psychological harm can that…
Dr Angelic Nespola (13:58.801)
Yeah.
Meg (14:09.741)
cause in the long term and what does a couple do when one parent has bonded as an example and that’s a good example and when the other parent hasn’t and you know I mean I mean just to give a bit of context here there will be this often swings and it’s very interesting I’m sure as a seasoned mom you will know this that there will be a time where it’s incredibly exclusive around the mom for instance in breastfeeding and there’ll be another time when dad is the flavor of the month and mom actually feels quite rejected particularly
in, I found it with my son in particular in the toddler years, he was like, I just was not cool. He was a boy, it was just as his kind of identity was coming through and I just wasn’t the flavor of the month. And so how do you manage that? mean, there’s a little bit of hurt and jealousy I remember from my side about my son wanting the dad and not me. And of course, fathers must feel it the same. So how do you cope with that?
Dr Angelic Nespola (14:41.67)
Yes.
Dr Angelic Nespola (14:50.906)
Yes.
Dr Angelic Nespola (15:05.283)
Yeah, so I think anyone who’s on the periphery, you know, I think there’s a lot of pain that comes with that. There’s a lot of hurts and it certainly will go against the expectation, the dream that they had when they when they saw their family coming together. And I I think with that, you know, we we’re wired for connection. So any time where that is threatened, there’s a lot of pain that comes up with that.
The difficulty is that if dad then starts to withdraw, there’s a sense of loneliness that you know comes with that. And as time goes, the more he withdraws, the bigger the gap becomes for the bonding. I do want to say though, I think there’s so much pressure to bond with your baby immediately, to attach. But
We know that attachment doesn’t happen immediately. Attachment happens over thousands of ordinary moments. So dad is gonna bond over time. And in the beginning, I know like conversations with my husband as well. You know, he doesn’t quite know where his role is. It’s like you say, mom is breastfeeding and she kind of knows her role. Dad isn’t quite sure, he’s gotta figure it out, and his role becomes more apparent as as time goes, as baby needs mom a little bit less.
In the newborn phase, his role is to support mom. But as mom, you know, is needed less and less by baby dad, you know, his role becomes a little bit more pronounced. So I think what’s important there is to let dad do the things when he can, if he can, and allow that bond to form because it happens in the nappy changing, in the the barthing, you know, in those ordinary mundane moments, that’s where.
Meg (16:38.189)
Yeah.
Dr Angelic Nespola (16:54.807)
bonding happens. That’s where attachment starts to develop. It’s not in one moment or in the first week of life, you know, and I think dads start to panic in those first two weeks because they you know they don’t quite feel it yet maybe. And that’s okay. It doesn’t happen overnight.
Meg (17:08.297)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, very interesting, very interesting. So there’s obviously a lot of talk now about perinatal mood and distress and postnatal depression, know, call it what you will. And we all identify that that is a multifactorial issue around women feeling low and anxious and distressed during pregnancies. a piece of it is hormonal, which is, you know, in response to the massive hormone shift that happens at birth. But a piece of it is also associated with
the shift in identity, the shift in roles, and just the absolute massiveness of his life stage event. So if we’re saying that dads are also experiencing a massive life stage event, do we see postnatal depression or perinatal distress in dads as well? And if so, we don’t talk about it, and is it underdiagnosed?
Dr Angelic Nespola (18:03.153)
Yeah, absolutely. So it definitely is something to look out for. The worldwide estimates is that one in ten dads would experience postnatal depression. That’s worldwide. If we’re looking at your lower-income countries, the estimates are a little bit higher. I think it was around 15% to 20% of dads, which is a really high number. Another little bit of interesting emerging, so I do want to highlight it, is emerging research.
That highlighted that many dads were experiencing postnatal depression much later. So around the baby’s one-year birthday, so 12 months later, the symptoms of depression were starting to present, which I found very, very interesting. So that’s something to take note of.
Meg (18:45.844)
So interesting.
Dr Angelic Nespola (18:52.227)
It does get missed, and I think there are two reasons that come to mind as to why this you know might be missed. The first is it often doesn’t look like what you think it would look like. Dad’s experience might not be one of low mood and sadness. His depression might present as isolating or maybe w overworking, throwing himself into work or
Unhealthy coping, you know, mechanisms like drinking or irritability, maybe. And then that’s often one that presents with with a picture of depression, any many pictures of depression, but in particular with with fathers, is irritability, and we don’t clock it. You know, family members might not notice it as depression because it’s not what we expect depression to look like. The sad low mood. So that’s the one reason I think.
The other reason is I think dads feel like they can’t speak about it. They need to be the strong one. And so they isolate and they don’t speak about it. Maybe they don’t even realize it for themselves. And then if I think back to my postpartum period, frequently
I would have check-ins with my healthcare providers. So at the hospital, they’ll check in on my mood. The nurse would check, the gynee would check, you know. At my follow-up appointment with the gynee, guy would again check. So there are people frequently screening because we’re very aware of mom and postnatal depression. I think family members were also checking to see if I’m okay. No one did that for my husband.
Right, no no one checked in on him. And so I think because of that it often kind of slips by unnoticed.
Meg (20:35.51)
Yeah. Nah.
Meg (20:44.014)
And you know, I think another thing does happen as well, and that is that women have become increasingly better in recent years about speaking about matricence and how hard it can be. And also women are, well, I mean, in general, we are more readily vulnerable. We will talk about our vulnerabilities and we have a network. And I think, you know, there will be other moms that we meeting up with that a mom and baby class of some sort. Dad’s at work, so he doesn’t have somebody who’s going through the same life stage as him.
Dr Angelic Nespola (20:54.778)
Yeah.
Meg (21:14.102)
And so I think the fact that he can become very isolating, he doesn’t talk about it. So yeah, it is a very at risk period. And I think you gave some really amazing tips there what moms can look out for, is really amazing. So I wanted to shift the attention to the division of labor. And I mean, I don’t know if I’m abnormal, but my husband and I definitely had this. And in fact, we still do. would hate to admit, but there is a piece of me that wants him to know that
Dr Angelic Nespola (21:14.289)
Should
Meg (21:41.571)
I’m caring so much and sometimes it feels like I’m caring more than him. And of course, from his perspective, he wants me to acknowledge how much he’s caring and that actually he sometimes feels that he’s caring more. And so this is really, I think an area certainly in our marriage, if I look back in our marriage, this is probably the area where we’ve had the most fights is around the division of labor. How do parents navigate that? And is it common that you see that in marriages?
Dr Angelic Nespola (21:53.734)
Yeah.
Dr Angelic Nespola (22:10.639)
Yeah, it is I think it is a very common experience and I think it can manifest at different life stages. So the newborn stage is one of them, but I think it’s an ongoing conversation and an ongoing challenge, I suppose, that that crops up. I think the first thing is these conversations need to happen before the resentment builds. Because the reality is that by the time this conversation is coming up about the division of labor.
We’re not actually arguing about the bottles or the dishes or the laundry anymore. There’s something much deeper, I think. It’s it’s not about the 50-50 division of labor. I think what is then coming up at that stage is do you see everything I’m doing? Do you see that this is hard for me? Do you appreciate me? Do you know what it’s like for me? I think they’re very vulnerable feelings that come up for, you know.
for in in for couples during this experience. So I think these conversations need to be ongoing. And I I do think what’s helpful and what I often tell clients is it’s really not about 50-50 division, but it’s more about understanding what each person is going through. I think it’s important that both partners know what needs to happen. Like what is everything that needs to happen to keep this household going, to keep the kids’ schedules going.
Because mental load is a big thing and this is honestly not something I I knew in theory, but it’s not something you can understand till you step into that mom role. I think at any given stage a mom has 10 tabs open in her brain. You know, there’s so much going on. So it’s helpful if dad knows what is going on, if mom knows what is going on for dad, so that we can support each other.
Meg (23:56.781)
Yeah.
Meg (24:02.051)
Yeah.
Dr Angelic Nespola (24:06.933)
Not looking at, well, you’re doing this, let’s have a tally, da-da-da-da. It’s not 50-50. I think it’s more understanding where can I step in? What can I take off of your plates? And and that happens, I think, through ongoing conversation because capacity changes. My capacity is not where it was a month ago, and it’s probably not where it is, you know, in in two weeks’ time it might be different. And so we need to continue to to have those conversations.
Meg (24:25.463)
Yeah.
Meg (24:33.388)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, one of the things that we did, because, you know, sleep deprivation is really, really tricky. And unfortunately, and I can remember being told, you know, your dad must get up with you for the breastfeeds and he can do the change of the nappy and then you do the feeding. And very quickly, I worked out that this was pretty much the most illogical thing that I’ve ever seen in my life, because now you’ve got two sleep deprived parents.
We, I mean, there’s no perfect rule book, but what we did is we split the days at 4 a.m. So everything from bedtime to 4 a.m. or from the time I went to bed to 4 a.m. I did, he just never got up at night. It just wasn’t worth two of us having to be up and I was the one with breastfeeding. you know, that was the way it happened. But anything after 4 a.m., he would have to get up, get the baby, bring it into my bed, like literally.
Dr Angelic Nespola (25:04.155)
Yeah.
Meg (25:21.24)
pretty much latched it on me, take it away, change the nappy and then take care of it for the morning. And that is how we, we actually worked that out right through into the toddler years. And of course there’s that terrible early morning toddler, you know, where everybody’s watching whatever terrible TV program at kind of 4 a.m. because the baby’s now awake for the morning, the toddler’s awake for the day. And so my husband always took those ones and I must be honest, I’d rather do the night feeds than sit up at five o’clock in the morning when everyone’s working up for the day. That was my hell. So.
Yeah, I think there different ways to split it. What did you do?
Dr Angelic Nespola (25:50.524)
We actually did something very similar, Meg. We we our shift just started at three. My husband’s shift starts at three. And mainly because he’s a morning person and I I really need to thaw in the mornings. so we also had a shift just so that we can each get our rest, pull up strength and and get a good chunk of sleep and
Meg (25:56.683)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Meg (26:09.91)
Yeah. Yeah, no, and it is really, really important because I think it’s that sleep deprivation is an absolute killer. And, you know, obviously, when you sleep deprived, you can also end up being overstimulated, over, you know, dysregulated, unable to actually regulate emotions that pre-baby, you would have been able to regulate, you would have been able to negotiate with him, you would have been able to navigate strong emotions, but now suddenly you sleep deprived and you just don’t have the psychological capacity to
empathize and to kind of give, listen, you know, it just becomes a complete minefield. So, I mean, I guess dysregulation is going to affect parents. I don’t know if you want to talk a little bit to that and also maybe give a little bit of few tips on how parents can regulate in order that they actually, you know, can be a little bit more mature than toddlers when dealing with each other.
Dr Angelic Nespola (26:59.813)
Yeah, absolutely. Because I think it’s really hard to be your best self when you’re tired and when your nervous system is doing cardwheels. I think that’s a particular time where your vulnerabilities come up. Parts of yourself that you’ve maybe worked on, healing that you’ve done when you’re tired and sleep deprived and hormonal and whatnot, those things come up. So maybe I don’t know, you’ve got a partner who isolates.
when they’re they’re struggling and they’ve worked on that. But the moment you’re tired and you’re overstretched and you’re overwhelmed, you’re gonna revert back to that that pattern. So I think that’s important to to note. And I think over stimulation in parenting you know in parenting is a major major thing that I did not expect. And I’m just thinking about a conversation I had with my mom the other day. I might digress slightly but I I’ll I’ll get back to my point.
she she likes to buy these loud toys with lights and you know for my toddler and he loves it obviously. But the one day I asked her, I asked my toddler, can you just turn it down a notch, not put it on the highest level? And my mum looked at me and she was really surprised that I asked that. So she’s quite used to my husband, you know, asks him to like turn it, turn it down.
But she she looked at me and she’s like, You grew up in an Italian family, you’re very used to chaos, you’re very used to loud, which is true. I I’m I love it. And so I said to her, I know, but as a parent, I’m very often overstimulated. There’s somebody climbing on me, there’s somebody leading me, there’s like four people calling me. you know, there there’s a really big component of parenting that is over, you know, overstimulating. And so she looks at me and she’s like,
Meg (28:36.301)
Yeah.
Dr Angelic Nespola (28:51.493)
Yeah, I and I think she remembered in that moment what what it was like and and it clicked for her that that overstimulation is a big thing. And I think added to that lack of sleep also, you know, weighs in. Lack of sleep is torture. Everything falls apart. Your your hormones, your worldview changes, you know, the way you see yourself change, everything changes when when you’re not sleeping. So I think
Meg (29:15.724)
Yeah. And you know, it’s so interesting what you say because we all have different sensory thresholds. And I’ll never forget a few years ago, I was actually lecturing to the MPhil students, know, psychiatrists, doctors who were becoming psychiatrists at Falkenberg Hospital in the Western Cape. And I was doing a talk on sensory personalities. And afterwards, one of these psychiatrists came up to me and he said to me his wife was pregnant with twins.
And he said he knew that she had a low sensory threshold, that she had a real propensity for overstimulation. And he said just knowing now that this was a risk factor for her meant that he could cater differently in their relationship. And it was just incredibly insightful where he had identified that she was likely to have a low threshold. She was likely to be dysregulated by the end of the afternoon. And so he then would.
to compensate for her. And I think if parents can identify that in each other, because sometimes it is not, it’s the other way around where the husband has been, or the partner has been out at work all day, he’s had the stress of being in the real world, he comes home for some respite and the house is not, I mean, it’s not peaceful. Especially once you’ve got, as you know, you’ve got a toddler and a newborn, it is chaos. And so really identifying for each other that actually, okay, he’s out of capacity right now.
Dr Angelic Nespola (30:29.467)
Yeah.
Meg (30:40.77)
I’m gonna have to pick up the pieces because he just can’t self-regulate, right?
Dr Angelic Nespola (30:44.847)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think alongside that, noticing within yourself when you’re starting to feel dysregulated, when that feeling is starting to crop up, know what it feels like in your body.
So that you can ask for help before. So when you feel that feeling crop up, that you can actually say to your partner, look, I just need a moment and know what’s gonna work for you. For some people, it’s a cup of tea, a little bit of fresh air. Look, you don’t have a lot of time, you’ve got to make 10 minutes work. So find something that you can do in that time just to regulate, you know, figure out what it is for yourself that you can do in that 10 minutes.
Meg (31:22.998)
Yeah, yeah. Well, this has been the most incredible conversation, I’m sure that there lots of parents who are thinking about their marriage and their relationship and their partners and potentially want to get hold of you. Where would people be able to get hold of you if they wanted to have a session with you? I mean, you do see patients, I’m guessing.
Dr Angelic Nespola (31:40.037)
Yes, I I do see b I’m on maternity leave at the moment, but I I will be back. So my website is www.anginesvila.co.za and that’s A-N-G-E. N-E-S-P-O-L-A.
Meg (31:56.27)
Brilliant, well, we’ll definitely pop those into the show notes. And Angie, I just have a feeling that you and I are going to be working together more closely. So I have loved your conversation. I think it’s been exactly what parents need to hear at the moment. to work together as a team is hard sometimes, but the ultimate reward is absolutely massive. And I think you’ve highlighted a lot of that today. So thank you so much.
Dr Angelic Nespola (32:17.625)
It’s a pleasure. I think we we all need reminding, myself included. So this is good for me too, to just remind myself and and revisit the literature and integrate it into our lives. Because I think that’s a big goal for me with doing things like this is to make the research, to make psychology applicable to everybody because it is. It needs to be, it needs to be relevant to everybody. So thank you so much for having me.
Meg (32:40.961)
Yeah, a pleasure. Thanks so much, Excellent. Okay, Madge, thank you.
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