[0:00 – 0:27]
Meg Faure: Today is a great episode on reflective parenting in the feeding space. Today the podcast is going to be taken over again by our paediatric dietitian Kath Megaw. She will be hosting it and this week she steps in as the guest host in a very powerful conversation with clinical psychologist Dr Jenny Rose. Together they unpack the emotional journey of feeding children and they explore how our own upbringing around food shapes the way that we parent at the table. From good and bad food rules to mealtimes battles, they reflect on how to foster a healthier and more mindful relationship with food for the whole family. Dr Jenny offers simple thought-provoking takeaways that help parents to pause, to reflect and then to feed with connection and intention. It is a wonderful episode, don’t go away.
[0:27 – 1:09]
Announcer: Welcome to Sense by Meg Faure, the podcast that’s brought to you by Parent Sense, the app that takes guesswork out of parenting. If you’re a new parent then you are in good company. Your host Meg Faure is a well-known OT, infant specialist and the author of eight parenting books. Each week we’re going to spend time with new mums and dads just like you to chat about the week’s wins, the challenges and the questions of the moment. Subscribe to the podcast, download the Parent Sense app and catch Meg here every week to make the most of that first year of your little one’s life and now meet your host.
[1:09 – 1:28]
Kath Megaw: Hi everyone to the Feeding Sense podcast on Parent Sense and with Meg. I’m excited for the guest that we have today. It’s Jenny, Dr Jenny Rose, a colleague of mine and co-author of our recent book Mindful Meals. It’s so lovely to have you on Jenny and maybe you can just tell everyone a little bit about yourself.
[1:28 – 2:24]
Dr. Jenny Rose: Oh thanks Kath, it’s so lovely to be here so thank you for having me. Yeah I think as an introduction I am first and foremost a mother of three which I think gives a lot of different insight that I bring to my professional voice as well but I’m a clinical psychologist and I specialise in work with children and teens. I have my PhD in attachment-based parenting so I do a lot of my focus in my work on how to guide parents and how to equip them to navigate the struggles of childhood and yeah really just working on how we can enhance and strengthen that relationship between parent and child because I believe that so you know the core of so much lies within that relationship and at the moment I work full-time at a local private psychiatric hospital where I head up the children’s unit there and predominantly see kids and teens admitted there but do a lot of other things in between including things like this podcast and writing a book with you Kath and all sorts of other wonderful things that I get to be part of and help parents along their journey and raising kids.
[2:24 – 3:19]
Kath Megaw: And Jen that you do so well I really I just love working with you and just kind of the synergy and people sometimes say well what synergy is there between a psychologist and a dietitian and I think that we’re going to show today and present how if you understand that synergy and you kind of work with it you can really take the feeding space into a whole different realm. So firstly just the question to you is there a relationship between psychology and nutrition?
[3:19 – 4:58]
Dr. Jenny Rose: Yeah I mean absolutely you and I wouldn’t have walked the road that we have for years and years treating many patients and developing our book alongside if there wasn’t this relationship and I think it’s a beautiful overlap of two disciplines I think they each have a lot as standalones and in their separate worlds but I think when we can actually see how interwoven and overlap these two disciplines are that’s where the real beauty comes and I think we’re actually naive to think about food without psychology and even psychology without food and nutrition because I think they are both such fundamental components of our day and if we think about just on a basic level what are the things that all of us are doing every single day that is engaging with some sort of nutritional food aspect and engaging with others and living relationally so those are two of the primary things we do day in day out from being teeny little three month olds to being 50 year olds this is what we’re doing so there is huge overlap between these two and I think that’s what you and I are able to do really I think quite well is to bring the level of depth between these two disciplines that certainly is a big gap I think in many many areas.
[4:58 – 6:17]
Kath Megaw: I love that and I also just you know we often talk about it that’s you know as a parent you are kind of navigating this journey with your child or about to embark on navigating this journey with your child moms and dads but we often come from a place of carrying our own feelings around food our own habits around food I often get in my practise you know oh won’t you just see my baby I don’t want them to be as fussy as their dad or with me or have issues around eating because that’s what I struggled with growing up and I think those are common things that parents will say to probably both of us as you’re about to embark on that on that journey so maybe you could just speak to that how does a new parent or even a second time parents how as kind of as parents how do we prepare for that journey of food or can we prepare or should we prepare?
[6:18 – 9:06]
Dr. Jenny Rose: Yeah I think entering parenthood I think why it is often such a life-changing experience is that we think we can prepare for so much but actually we are just I think overwhelmed by what comes when we become parents and I think one of the areas that it really holds true in is around this relationship with food I think we we often go into parenthood thinking about what it’s going to be like for our child how intentional we’re going to be for our baby we’re going to nourish them we’re going to give them the best exposure to foods we’re going to make sure they develop all these healthy things these patterns this relationship with food so intentional and conscious about what we want to ensure happens for our kids and what we don’t always factor in as we enter parenthood is thinking about what our own dynamics were around that very thing and then what happens is as you walk a parenting journey and this holds true for many dimensions of parenting but as you walk this parenting journey on the one hand you are navigating that developmental space with your child but on this side you are actually working in a parallel process of your own process that unfolded or happened when you were a child and so this is I think where the real complexity of parenthood comes in and what makes it often challenging is that we’re holding these two very big very important things often simultaneously and that’s why there is this parallel process and we often refer to this in psychology as the work of re-parenting that’s why re-parenting is a profound thing because we are parenting our children but simultaneously we are re-parenting that inner child of ours that walked a similar journey and I think it holds true for food and you know if we think about what we want to have in our homes the tone of food in our home how we value connection around mealtimes how we understand self-image all these kinds of things we’re naive to think we can only do it for our kids without realising we have to first also do that about ourselves and that’s a big task you know we’re calling for parents to really reflect on what did these things look like in your home what was it to grow up in your house as a kid what did food feel like when you think back to a meal do you think of it fondly does it bring warm reminiscing memories or do you notice a sudden spark of anxiety do you feel that you might be in trouble or punished if you don’t finish a meal or that there’s an expectation or pressure on you so just really taking it a step further and delving into the depth of understanding what the food dynamics were in your own home growing up.
[9:06 – 9:41]
Kath Megaw: Oh that’s so good so it’s really just finding that space to just reflect and and take a moment instead of just diving deep in just about your thoughts around food which I think you know it’s not always that we don’t want to do it we don’t always realise how important it is to do it I mean it is hard in in some cases but I still think you know we kind of go into it without realising actually what’s what’s behind all these things all these ideas we’ve got you know would you say that in a world where there’s a lot of noise and a lot of voices and a lot going on would you say that it’s more important now than ever to be reflective because you’ve because it’s also that that’s coming into the mix more than what say I experienced raising kids?
[9:42 – 11:27]
Dr. Jenny Rose: Absolutely I think there’s become this great divide between the sort of outside voice and the noise there and often our own intuitive response of what we think we need to do and I think while this sort of burst in social media resources and access to knowledge is wonderful in so many ways I think the downfall of it is that it really leaves parents questioning themselves in in many ways and feeling like they can’t live up to the expectations that society is currently setting towards being this perfect parent and so there’s this discrepancy between what you hear and what you’re doing and all that does is create more and more sort of um yeah feelings of disappointment and feeling like you’re failing because you look out there and it feels like everyone’s getting it done beautifully and perfectly and you look towards yourself and feel like you’re not achieving those things and then I think you learn to distrust your own intuitive response less and less and and turn towards external voices more and more and we need to find that balance we always say Kath you and I love to say you need to find one or two sound voices of reason that you trust that you can turn to for input because we need a village we need support find your specialists find the people that it’s worth speaking to it’s worth investing time being guided by them but also recognising that you cannot determine your worth and your efficacy as a parent based on complete strangers and thousands of different um inputs and perspectives on what it is to be a parent.
[11:27 – 12:23]
Kath Megaw: I love that and I think let’s talk a bit more about our worth um because I think I remember with my eldest child when he would eat or finish his food or supper I would be like oh my word I’m an amazing mom I’ve like done it like my day was made it didn’t matter what went on at the office it was like that was it you know why do we do that why do we put and especially I think when it comes to the feeding space there’s almost this measurement of our parenting by what they eat on their plates and if you kind of think about it it sounds quite ridiculous but it’s real um like talk to talk to us a bit about this.
[12:23 – 12:57]
Announcer: This episode is brought to us by ParentSense the all-in-one baby and parenting app that help you make the most of your baby’s first year. Don’t you wish someone would just tell you everything you need to know about caring for your baby when to feed them how to wean them and why they won’t sleep? ParentSense app is like having a baby expert on your phone guiding you to parent with confidence. Get a flexible routine, daily tips and advice personalised for you and your little one. Download ParentSense app now from your app store and take the guesswork out of parenting.
[12:57 – 13:00]
Kath Megaw: Like talk to talk to us a bit about this.
[13:00 – 15:38]
Dr. Jenny Rose: Yeah I think you know again I often say the first thing that a new mom is asked in the first early couple of months is how well does your baby sleep and how well does your baby eat and it feels like society has created this idea that for us to be successful parents it is determined by those two factors and when we actually just take a moment to pause and go hang on let me just think that through I think we can all recognise that that’s absolute nonsense that there is no way that our worth as a parent or our success as a parent is determined by these two factors that it makes no sense whatsoever but yet we often find ourselves being drawn to those two factors what how are kids doing in those two areas and then putting the pressure on ourselves and I think again this comes back to the idea of listening to those external voices. I think motherhood can be such a lonely journey and it feels so ironic in many ways because it’s the one club that there are so many members of you know we have this world of support actually around us yet we feel so vulnerable to actually share when things are not going how we envisioned or what we were expecting. We share the highlights reel it’s the real social media reel where we share when our kids are absolutely devouring that homemade meal we don’t share the times where we’re scooping it completely into the rubbish bin or resorting to plan C for the night you know those those are the the moments that we feel just are failures on our behalf as mothers and that’s where we really are trying to rewrite the narrative because that’s not a reflection and I think really sort of flipping it to say we’re not looking to the external world to determine our worth or our value or our success but rather we need to turn inwards and determine those things and that’s what I always say to me the beauty of parenthood and the beauty of being a parent that is invested which if you are listening to this you are already ticking that box by listening to this podcast it means you’re invested in your child’s well-being you want to be the best parent that you possibly can and when we are invested in these things then it allows us to actually say what do we want to shift for the future we have this privileged position today as you sit here you and I Kath every listener right now today we have the privilege to say I want to change the way this is at the moment I want it to be better for my child I want my home to be a place of nurturance when it comes to food there should be no food pressure I can make that decision today and implement the things I need to implement to reap the rewards of that tomorrow and that is a beautiful thing that we actually are able to flip the narrative a little bit so I think that’s what excites me about this journey is that it is never too late to do this and that it is something that we can all action all do with intentionality and knowledge.
[15:38 – 16:36]
Kath Megaw: I love that I remember at one of our book launches we got the question is it too late to change now and there might be moms watching who have toddlers and or school-going age kiddies and you know and it’s never too late you know it’s it’s always okay to re-narrate your food journey and your child’s food story and that sort of thing so let’s get down to some real practical things like reflections so a mom is going to embark on a food journey like what what would some of the things be and how practically would she is it good to find a place on your own a place of quiet or must you just be doing it while she’s standing preparing stuff in the kitchen just yeah so I love how practical you are and one thing with Meg’s you know who Sense by Meg is so practical so it would be lovely just to to bring some practical elements.
[16:37 – 19:45]
Dr. Jenny Rose: Yeah and I love that question Kath because I think exactly that we can talk about all these things but how do we bring it to fruition how do we bring it to life and I think there are many ways to do it I think and we’ve explored in our book a beautiful chapter around reflection which I think is a great resource for parents to start that journey but I think there are many other ways that one can do it as well and obviously even in a therapeutic process is something that you could do but for a lot of us it’s also just great to devote a little bit more insight and reflection just in your everyday life and I think to me one of the biggest things that is gained from reflection is just awareness to me if you can recognise that there is this thing and this is how it plays out and you see it unfold that is where the power lies a lot of people come and say what do I do to change it or how can I shift this thing and actually that’s not as important as being able to recognise when you are doing this thing that was almost second nature for years and years and years when that light bulb goes off that actually is the profound shift that’s happening and the rest will fall into place but so what that means is on a very practical level to have these reflections I think going into a quiet place where you are not distracted where you’re not having little hands tugging on your ankles or someone demanding something from you that you have a little bit of space to go a little deeper and to really reflect on what your own home looked like when it came to food and nutrition and then to recognise what emotions it’s stirring up for you in the here and now I think that is such a powerful thing to me it’s unbelievable how we can access something from 40 years ago and it will evoke a feeling and a response now and that feeling to reflect on is this a good feeling is this a feeling that makes me uncomfortable do I feel anxious or distressed in this moment and then starting to pinpoint a little bit more around it I think reflection also comes in other ways which is starting to recognise what you do unconsciously without realising that you do it for example do you have the mindset that you need to eat every bite of food on your plate and that’s something you might not even be aware that you do and you just do it because that’s what you have to do and I think our book launch again facilitated so many beautiful conversations and one of them was around a lot of a very real South African problem where a lot of people grew up without meat and then what it is to eat meat now and how that informs how you think about meat and maybe when your children don’t want to finish their meat and then there’s wastage when it comes to meat and what that evokes for you and triggers in you because of your upbringing and so it’s actually starting to recognise these little patterns that unfold in your own home when it comes to food and those are the things that we really want to give a little bit more intentional thought to how do we understand where that’s come from why it is there and how it became this entrenched pattern and once we piece that puzzle together shifting it becomes a lot easier.
[19:45 – 20:18]
Kath Megaw: I love that Jen and as you mentioned you know you did a whole chapter of this in the book Mindful Meals and that was it still is and I think will always be probably both of our favourite one because it really is the chapter that will set you up for success because I love what you said when you recognise a pattern of behaviour you then actually take back the power and are able to make changes to that behaviour so even though it feels a bit scary to go down that road I think it’s so powerful so that’s so awesome and I just love those those tips you gave us.
[20:18 – 22:00]
Dr. Jenny Rose: And I think that’s also you know that chapter to me feels like one of the chapters that separates this model of intervention that you and I chat about so often is that working where we both work in our hospital settings and together on many patients cases we have our foot in very much a treatment modality where either when it’s little children coming to us because of picky eating or some struggles around food or whether that’s further down the line and could be a teenager that’s having struggles with an eating disorder or really challenging behaviour around eating but that’s a sort of treatment focused modality and I think what we also are trying to really pioneer for and advocate for the idea around a more preventative framework when we can reflect we’re actually building up our capacity for prevention and I think that’s what I want parents to understand it isn’t just about your own journey of course that is so powerful and so important and I urge and encourage every parent to walk that road of reflection for themselves but I think what you also need to understand is that when you do that you are working at a preventative strategy for your child having difficulties or challenges around food and that is really what our goal is really and protect and advocate for children and teens and teeny little babies so that these little children grow into adults that have got good solid healthy relationships with food.
[22:00 – 23:18]
Kath Megaw: I love that I love that’s a lovely mission statement to advocate for healthy relationship with food I mean just it’s so beautiful because I think someone said it a while back is that one thing you can never get away from is food something that I see a lot in my practise and the challenges around that where parents kind of have a voice of a person they love deeply respect deeply connected to deeply that has a different way around a different way of thinking around food and now maybe this parent has reflected like we’ve asked them to do but the reality is that you know that was the story in their journey and now the grandparent for example or the auntie or someone else that’s close to the family brings in elements that they are trying not to re-narrate in that story don’t know if you’ve got just kind of a few tips around that.
[23:18 – 25:34]
Dr. Jenny Rose: I think this is again another example where our two disciplines merge so beautifully together because it takes the understanding of food and nutrition and your intentions for how you want to raise your baby and it merges it with a good understanding of what it is to put boundaries in place in family dynamics and I think this is such an important thing to hear is that there are always going to be people with different opinions and pushing for different things and I think part of becoming a parent is there’s this child within you or this person this being within you that is also born on the day that your child is born and with this emerges this identity and this voice and it’s this becoming of something that you need to be able to put boundaries to safeguard as well because you need to establish what you think is important in your family and I’ve yet to meet a parent that doesn’t have their child’s best interests at heart. I think every parent is coming from a place of good intentions and I think the same holds true for people wanting to give advice and input that it comes from a place of well-meaning and good intentions but we can’t take on board every voice of every person that we hear and we need to start developing our own inner voices that hopefully are aligned with a couple of those safe voices we’ve spoken about doing a little bit of research yourself you know really trying to find the best approach possible but then also linking it in an authentic way to what you feel is right and then being able to put those boundaries in place in a way that preserves the relationships and doesn’t cause conflict but to understand that there is no parenting world where it should be okay for you to sacrifice your own voice to keep the other voices at ease around you or to appease those voices there is no world where that is the best thing for your child your child needs you to advocate for them and to use your voice and to put boundaries in place and do the things that are important to be done and sometimes that means having to put boundaries in place with people that are close to you.
[25:34 – 27:31]
Kath Megaw: I love that Jen I think that’s such a nice place to end on and I really I’ve really enjoyed this conversation we could obviously carry on and on but “Mindful Meals” is available and it’s a sequel to “Weaning Sense” which Meg and I wrote and it’s a follow-on from that but even great to have as a resource early on in the journey especially from your point of view around the whole psychology around food I think it’s also so helpful and so it’s wonderful wonderful to have you on today and I’m sure we will chat many more times on this podcast and I think as just kind of a closing is just to reiterate what you said that there is no I love it you said there is no parenting world where it’s where it’s okay for you to not be the loudest voice for your child and to advocate for your child and just like we love advocating for our patients as parents that’s our role we get to advocate for their journeys and and the journey when it comes to food is such a fundamental place where we need to have a voice that we can guide and share and kind of determine the journey that we’re going to take our child on so thank you so much Jen.
[27:31 – 27:33]
Dr. Jenny Rose: Thanks for having me Kath it’s been lovely chatting.
[27:34 – 27:42]
Announcer: Thanks to everyone who joined us we will see you the same time next week until then download ParentSense app and take the guesswork out of parenting.
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