Transcript
Meg Faure: Welcome back mums and dads, this is your weekly dose of Sense by Meg Faure. This episode is one of our favourites because it’s the one where we have a real mum joining us. Today’s real mum is mum to twin boys, Zoe Brown. Welcome, Zoe.
Zoe Brown: Hi Meg. It is still so surreal to think I’m a mum.
Meg Faure: Well, it’s been quite a few months now. How old are they now, Zoe?
Zoe Brown: My boys are six and a half months. I feel like time has flown by; I’m ready to put up the Christmas tree, that’s how this year has felt.
Meg Faure: It absolutely flies, it certainly does. And of course, because it’s twins—and twins bring an added complexity—we always have Tasha Perard with us. Tasha is a nurse in the Western Cape who runs a very busy well-baby clinic. She is also a mum to twins herself and has carved out a speciality and a deep focus in the twin world. So Tasha, thank you so much for joining us as you always do.
Tasha Perard: Thanks so much for having me as always. I really love these chats with you both.
Meg Faure: They’ve been absolutely incredible. So, Zoe, as usual, we are going to look at the wins, the challenges, and then the questions of the moment. Let’s start with the wins. What are our boys up to?
Zoe Brown: Our boys are rolling like little tumbleweeds. It’s beautiful to see, but it’s also quite terrifying. You leave them on their backs, turn for a second, and come back to find them on their tummies. or at the other end of the mat because they’ve just rolled all the way. They are definitely very active.
I was a little bit worried looking at the outline of milestones, wondering when we were going to accomplish rolling from back to tummy. We’ve been very good at doing tummy to back, but not the other way around. Then it just happened overnight. We panicked because my boys were still on their Nurture One pillows. I’ve been meaning to unswaddle them, but when they started rolling, we panicked. We completely got them off the pillows and unswaddled them, and that just completely threw our sleep routine because there was no gentle transition. It was just cold turkey. That didn’t work for us, so we had to go get those transition sleep bags where you let one arm out at a time. Even though they’re off their pillows, they’re each in their own cot. I feel like it was a big move to also move them into their own room. So, we’ve had a lot happening in the last couple of weeks, but we’re about 70% back to good sleep.
Meg Faure: That is such a common challenge that moms deal with. I am an advocate of swaddling, and I also do like the baby sleep positioners like the Nurture One cushion, but for safe sleep purposes, there are lots of medical professionals—particularly in America—who say no swaddling because of the risk of SIDS. They say no objects in the cot, including baby positioners. While I do like them, the principle is that the minute they start rolling, those things can become risky. So you were spot on moving them out. We often see a little bit of sleep regression then because they don’t have that deep pressure and containment they had previously.
Tasha, how do you advise the moms in your practice regarding this?
Tasha Perard: Spot on. Exactly what you’ve been doing, Zoe. As soon as they start rolling off, you have to make changes. I think babies who are not on those sleep positioners probably start to roll in their sleep faster than babies who are on the cushion because obviously, the cushion restricts them a little bit. But certainly, what you’ve done is taken them away. It is so hard; you’ve just got to rip the band-aid off. You have a couple of nights of really difficult sleep, but I do find that they take a few days and then they’re back to normal. It sounds like your boys are such great sleepers anyway. Have they transitioned quite well without the cushions?
Zoe Brown: Both have transitioned okay. I would say Jordan probably the best; we can put them down at bedtime at 7:00 PM and he will wake up at 6:30 the next morning. But Luke… I don’t know what’s going on this last week or so. I think we have a little bit of snottiness, so there’s definitely something going on impacting Luke’s sleep. Last night was quite a tricky night. Normally when he becomes fussy it will be 2:00 AM, but last night it started at 10:30 PM and it was just a constant getting up to try and resettle him.
We ended up bringing him into our room. I thought maybe he was a bit cold, so tonight we’re going to try extra layers. With the sleep sacks and the different TOG levels, I’m always so worried I overdress or underdress the babies. You look on the baby monitor at the room temperature and guess the layers. Being off the pillow, he sleeps well during the day and he’s had good stretches in his cot by himself in their own room, so I know for a fact it’s not being on a flat mattress. I just think there’s either something going on—whether it’s teething, the snotty nose, or maybe he was a bit cold.
Meg Faure: I just want to pick up on a couple of things there, Zoe. When they are now on flat surfaces and at this stage of moving and rolling, one of the things they often start to do—which moms worry about—is position themselves in the cot. I call it “wedging,” which means they start to find another form of boundary. Often that’s sleeping right up against the cot bumper or up against the side. I always say to moms, don’t move them from there. Seeking boundaries and containment is something that the Nurture One cushion provided, but it’s now something that they can do independently.
The other position people worry about is the tummy-to-sleep position. Once they’re rolling, they find their own position and some babies find that they sleep on their tummies. That freaks parents out because obviously, we tell parents that babies must sleep on their backs. Tasha, what is your advice to parents once babies are moving and rolling and they find themselves on their tummy?
Tasha Perard: I was going to mention exactly the same thing. It’s terrifying when you wake up in the morning and you see your baby sleeping on their tummy when you put them to sleep on their back. A lot of parents constantly pull them back onto their backs. But the reality is, you can’t be awake for the 12 hours during the night watching these babies every single time they roll.
The fact that they are strong enough, and their head control is strong enough to push themselves up and pull themselves over to sleep on their tummies, means they are strong enough to lift their head and turn it to the side. It’s very unlikely for them to just completely smother themselves in the mattress. I honestly say just leave them. If they’re sleeping on their tummies, they’re strong enough to move. As Meg said, they sleep a lot better on their tummies. It’s amazing to see—they literally do little 360s in the cot. Your boys are in separate cots, aren’t they?
Zoe Brown: They are in separate cots. We had them in the same cot on the Nurture One pillows, but then I realized they needed more space. I initially wanted to put them head-to-head in the cot, but the one moves a bit more than the other and I was worried they would wake each other up by touch. They’ve been very good at tuning each other’s noises out.
It’s interesting that you mentioned finding a comfort position, Meg. I find that Luke wiggles to the side. I think he’s trying to be a side sleeper and that freaked us out last night when we saw on the monitor he was on his side, but he was fast asleep until I went into his room and woke him.
Meg Faure: I’d like to mention something else about Luke because you mentioned he hasn’t slept very well and has been a little bit more tricky than Jordan. That relates to his sensory personality. From the beginning, we’ve known that he’s the slightly more sensitive of the two. Very often our more sensitive little ones don’t sleep as well. You are seeing it played out in a human experiment because you’ve got two babies; mommies with only one don’t actually see that difference.
Something that might work really well for Luke is to get him a little weighted blanket. When we talk about a weighted blanket for children under the age of one, we’re talking about just a 100-gram weighted blanket. Nurture One actually has a little weighted blanket as well. The reason for that is that swaddling gives them deep pressure and the cushion gives them containment. When you remove that, the sensitive ones are more likely to be unsettled. A nice thing to replace that with is a little weighted blanket—normally about 45 centimeters square, not very big—just over their tummy.
There’s also a product on the market called a Zaky, which is in the shape of a hand and also weighted. Putting a little bit of weight over their tummy tends to calm their sensory systems.
The other thing I want to mention is you said he might have been cold. Actually, there’s a lot of research that shows a slightly lower temperature is better for sleep. Back in the day, we thought we had to keep babies really warm, but having them in a little vest, a baby grow, and a sleeping bag with a little weighted blanket is probably enough if your room is between 18 and 21 degrees Celsius. I wouldn’t worry too much about the coldness; I would say he’s needing a little bit of weight on him at this stage.
Tasha Perard: I often recommend making one of those weighted blankets. It’s so easy. You literally get a big ziplock bag and put about 200 grams of lentils or rice into it. Put that into a tight pillowcase or something similar, and you can use that instead of buying anything.
Zoe Brown: I will try that this evening. It’s so interesting that you mentioned that because my big thing—and this is where my husband and I never really had the conversation—is “baby not in the bed.” He was very okay to bring the baby to the bed. So, how the evening played out was I kept getting up to resettle. Eventually, he got up to resettle, and when I noticed the baby was quiet, I turned around and the baby was in the bed with us. I was like, “You just ended all the hard work I’ve been doing!”
Meg Faure: That is so classic. I love that. That is a discussion I always encourage parents to have. There isn’t a right and a wrong; co-sleeping safely is absolutely fine and for a lot of parents, that is their choice.
Meg’s audio cuts out briefly.
Tasha Perard: Give us a second. Zoe, tell me, do your boys take dummies?
Zoe Brown: They do. So, I every night put both of them down with their dummies. Jordan is not so attached to his dummy; he will easily fall asleep with or without it. Whereas Luke is very dependent on his dummy. I do find it slightly frustrating when the dummy falls out in the middle of the night and he’s not able to self-soothe.
Tasha Perard: Exactly. It’s a very frustrating time where you’re just doing “dummy runs” backwards and forwards throughout the whole night. I often recommend at this age, when you go to settle your baby, don’t put the dummy in their mouth for them. Put the dummy in their hand and then pull the hand to their mouth so they’re learning how to do it themselves. Often by about eight or nine months, they start looking around for it and can do it themselves.
I also recommend attaching a dummy chain to a little sleepy friend so they know when they grab the friend, the dummy is there. Or, just get four or five dummies and put them all over so they have a menu of dummies to choose from in the night.
Meg Faure: Exactly. It is a short-lived patch, usually between five and seven months, where you’re on “dummy patrol.” Parents have two choices: get rid of the dummy altogether, or teach them. Because I love dummies, I don’t recommend getting rid of it. Exactly to Tasha’s point: always put it in their hand, even in daylight hours. They very quickly learn. I think they’re using the Bibs dummies, aren’t they?
Zoe Brown: They’re using different dummies. Jordan loves the Bibs dummies but isn’t dependent. Luke is currently using the Philips dummies; they’re clear and age-appropriate.
Meg Faure: Yeah, the non-orthodontic dummies like Bibs and Philips Avent can go in any way, which is fine. The orthodontic ones that only go one way up can cause difficulty because the baby has to turn them.
Zoe, tell us a little bit about the social side. I know you joined a mum and baby sensory group. Are you still going?
Zoe Brown: Yes, we are still going. We’re about to start term four. It’s been lovely. Each week is a different theme. In the beginning, I found it sensory overload, but I think I just needed to get used to it. In between the play, there are sensory breaks with quiet moments or gentle music.
From a personality perspective, they’re starting to laugh at each other, which is just the sweetest thing. Partly why we moved them to their own cot was because the one would instigate the other during naps, and they would just giggle. It was beautiful, but when you want them to nap, you want them to nap. Luke is much more aware of other babies, whereas Jordan is happy to go on with life, not really interested unless we put the boys facing each other.
Tasha Perard: Are they sitting up together? Are they able to sit opposite each other?
Zoe Brown: We are not there yet. I use your box trick, Meg. I’ve got two giant nappy boxes that the boys have been sitting and playing in. Luke absolutely loves it; he wants to sit but isn’t fully there yet. If I prop him, he leans too much forward. Jordan just wants to straighten his legs; he doesn’t want to bend his hips to sit. He ends up with his bum in the air and legs straight.
Meg Faure: That sitting milestone is the six-month milestone, so they will be sitting well in the next couple of weeks. It’s great when they do because their hands are free. For now, popping them in that box or on cushions is amazing.
Zoe Brown: We’ve also been using the feeding pillow, which looks like a letter ‘U’ or ‘M’. That’s been great to prop them up.
Meg Faure: Lovely. I hear the boys are waking up now. We have a very gorgeous boy who’s just woken up to join the podcast. Hello! Is this Jordan?
Zoe Brown: Yes.
Meg Faure: Big little cheeks. I love what you said earlier; you wanted to make sure they were awake by 4:00 PM so that they go down easily at 6:30 PM. That is spot on. A lot of moms, particularly between six and nine months, battle because that late afternoon sleep starts to encroach on bedtime. I always recommend waking them from that last sleep of the day to ensure a nice stretch before bed.
Zoe Brown: Since I’ve been disciplined with cutting that last nap—I cut naps at 5:00 PM—I’ve noticed they sleep so much better at night. The only thing I’d love to know is what is an appropriate duration for naps? Today we had a very long morning nap because they were slightly snotty, which allowed me to get things done, but generally, I don’t get these long naps.
Meg Faure: Usually at about six months, there are three sleeps a day. Typically one is about 45 minutes, which is one sleep cycle. Hopefully, the midday sleep links two cycles, so maybe an hour to an hour and a half. That last sleep is super variable—maybe 45 minutes, or as short as half an hour if we have to wake them. I wouldn’t get fixated on which sleep is which length. If they do a longer morning sleep, they’ll probably do a shorter one in the afternoon. Some babies do two long sleeps and drop the third one, bringing bedtime forward. Tasha, what is your take?
Tasha Perard: Meg, you said exactly what I was going to say. It depends on the parents’ schedule. Ideally, you want a 45-minute nap, a longer lunch nap, and a catnap in the afternoon. As we approach eight or nine months, they will go down to two sleeps—generally one hour in the morning and one in the afternoon. It’s a transition; some days will be three sleeps, some two.
It sounds like your babies have similar sleep needs, which is fantastic. It is difficult when twins have different sleep needs. Sometimes each twin has to adapt to the other for your sanity.
Zoe Brown: That happens occasionally. I had a day last week where as one baby went down, it was time for the other to wake up.
Tasha Perard: At least it’s not every day. Your boys sound like textbook sleepers.
Zoe Brown: I’m hoping the trick with the dummy in the hand will save me a lot of getting up at night.
Tasha Perard: When did you transfer them into their own room? Do you feel they’re sleeping better compared to when they were in your room?
Zoe Brown: It started when we went away for the weekend. The Airbnb didn’t have space in the main bedroom, so we put them in the spare room. The first night we kept waking up checking the monitor, but the second night we slept really well. Luke only needed a dummy at 5:00 AM. When we moved them to their own cots at home, we initially had them in our room for a week, but they kept kicking their legs in their sleep and waking us up. So we decided to move them to their own room.
Meg Faure: I loved following your journey. As messy as parenting is, you are managing to get structures in place. Moving them to their own rooms fosters good sleep habits for babies and parents. Why do we want to be awake when our babies don’t actually need us? You’re doing an awesome job. Thank you both so much.
Zoe Brown: Thank you very much, Megan. Thank you, Tasha. I really appreciate the insight; it tells me I’m on the right track.
Meg Faure: You are absolutely on the right track. Tasha, thank you for being on. It is a delight to have someone as respected as you are. We are so aligned.
Podcast
