Pod154 Tasha Twins
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[Speaker 2] (0:00 – 1:46)
If you have ever wondered what it is like to carry, birth and raise twins, then this episode is for you. I’m joined by two incredible guests. The first is a big surprise, it is Zoe Brown.
She’s a well-known radio and TV personality who is just 48 hours away from meeting her little twin boys and then Tasha Perod who is a twin specialist, nurse and a twin mom herself. So together we’re going to be deep diving into the realities of twin pregnancy, birth and those first intense weeks of parenting two newborns at once. So this is what we covered off today and that you really shouldn’t miss.
We talk about Zoe’s plan to have a vaginal birth and if that’s something that may not be familiar for people delivering twins in South Africa, but actually in Australia which is where she’s based, it is something that they look at. So we unpack what makes a natural twin delivery possible. We then go on and we talk about the first moments, we talk about why early skin-to-skin contact is so important and we talk a little bit about delayed cord clamping and then also about early breastfeeding and how do you latch twins in the labour ward, how does that actually happen and how does it happen if c-section is necessary.
So very interesting look at that and then we go on and we do a really deep dive into feeding two babies which is potentially one of the more challenging things to learn in the early days. Is breastfeeding twins possible? Tasha shares her expert tips on tandem feeding, managing milk supply and also we go on to talk about nipple confusion which was a great question that came from Zoe and then we have a look at some of the best tools and tips in terms of hospital grade pumps and twin feeding pillows and so on.
So it’s really not an episode that you must miss. First of all if you are going to be delivering twins and secondly if you’re interested in this incredible journey that Zoe Brown is on. So please do join us and stay tuned for this incredible episode.
[Speaker 4] (1:48 – 2:29)
Welcome to Sense by Meg Forer, the podcast that’s brought to you by ParentSense, the app that takes guesswork out of parenting. If you’re a new parent then you are in good company. Your host Meg Forer is a well-known OT, infant specialist and the author of eight parenting books.
Each week we’re going to spend time with new mums and dads just like you to chat about the week’s wins, the challenges and the questions of the moment. Subscribe to the podcast, download the ParentSense app and catch Maker every week to make the most of that first year of your little one’s life and now meet your host.
[Speaker 2] (2:31 – 3:46)
Welcome back to Sense by Meg Forer and this is the podcast where we dive into the joys and challenges of parenting, sometimes with experts and sometimes with real mums and today we are super lucky we have got both and the reason that I have brought on a an expert and also a real mum is because it’s a very interesting episode. It is focused all about the world of twins so we’re going to be exploring what it’s like to have twins from through the eyes of a mum but also we’re going to have a twin expert on with us and she’s going to be chatting a little bit around what how to prepare yourself for twins. In today’s episode I am super excited because I am on the other side of a microphone from Zoe Brown.
Now Zoe Brown is very well known to many of us in South Africa. Welcome Zoe. Oh Meg it’s so great to be on the other side for once.
It’s awesome so mums in Cape Town you will know Zoe from the afternoon drive on KFM which I listen to religiously so I know your voice very well Zoe and then Zoe actually interviewed me a couple of times when we were when I was on Espresso because she was a presenter there as well so she’s so well known to us in South Africa. She currently lives in Australia with her husband and they are expecting twins and Zoe how long have you got to go?
[Speaker 3] (3:47 – 3:54)
Oh we are down to hours um to be honest as I’m sitting here these boys should be here in the next 48 hours.
[Speaker 2] (3:55 – 3:59)
Yeah incredible incredible so you said are you 38 weeks pregnant?
[Speaker 3] (4:00 – 4:32)
I am to be specific 37 and five days so I’m being induced in two days time and I think for me I really didn’t think trying to have twins naturally was an option until I came to Australia. I always just assumed a twin pregnancy ends up in the c-section and they were very big on encouraging natural birth if that’s you know if it’s favourable for babies and mom and I tick every box to try and have a natural birth so that’s what we’re going to attempt.
[Speaker 2] (4:33 – 5:18)
That’s incredible and I’d love to explore that more because there’ll be a lot of moms in South Africa who will be fascinated by that because the option won’t be offered to them and we’ll talk a little bit more about that and that’s why I’m also quite grateful to have an expert on with me because I’m not a twin expert I think it’s a field that is super niche and but today we’ve got Tasha Peridon with us and she’s a nurse a twin specialist and actually she’s a mom of twins herself and she has really aside from guiding moms of singletons she’s made a little bit of a speciality around guiding moms of twins as well and she recently did a chat with Sherlyn I know and so she really does chat to a lot of moms around a preparing for twins and b guiding them as they go along so Zoe we have got an expert on with us and I’m really excited to welcome Tasha welcome Tasha.
[Speaker 1] (5:19 – 5:20)
Thanks thanks so much for having me.
[Speaker 2] (5:21 – 5:38)
Excellent well Tasha you would not you and I are not familiar with this thing of really having twins through vaginal delivery are we I mean in South Africa it’s very much c-sections what I mean from a medical perspective what needs to be in place for a mom to attempt a natural delivery with with twins?
[Speaker 1] (5:39 – 6:55)
Yeah so I mean I guess in South Africa obviously birthing in South Africa in general is very different to birthing in Australia birthing in in England and and other countries and there are a few guineas in in Cape Town where we are that do provide well do offer vaginal deliveries but not many but those that do I guess the conditions need to be right so obviously you know no home birth so we we obviously recommend having a twin vaginal delivery in in the hospital under the guidance of a obstetrician and and the twins need to be in the right position so the positioning is key that’s the thing so you know it’s very difficult for it’s it’s easy to predict the position of the first baby so if the baby’s first baby’s head down and in the right position it’s quite difficult to predict the positioning of the second baby because you don’t know how they’re going to turn when the first baby’s out but you know in the scans that leading up to the delivery if both babies are in a good position you know if the one is head down and the one is other heads down as well then it’s absolutely possible to have a vaginal delivery so it’s super exciting that you’re giving that opportunity and as I said there’s not many many doctors in in Cape Town or the western Cape who would do that so really fantastic and I’m so glad that your boys are in the right position that’s wonderful.
[Speaker 2] (6:56 – 7:00)
Yeah and so how were you guided Zoe was that kind of the advice you were given?
[Speaker 3] (7:01 – 8:14)
Well I was asked pretty much like what is my ideal birth plan and I said to him the obstetrician I just want to avoid ending up in a position where baby a comes naturally that you know vaginally and baby b ends up in a c-section I think for any mother especially a twin parent to end up with both delivery options is worst case scenario so he broke it down to me and said you know what let’s look at who’s setting themselves up for success and like Tasha said both babies are head down both of them are the same size which is also quite key and there’s no discordance between them and both of them have you know they are healthy they dcda twins so they’ve got their own placenta their own sacx so in terms of a risk I tick all the boxes for being low risk for things going wrong.
I am signing up to this knowing that there could be still a potential that baby b might end up through a caesarean but it’s it’s a risk I’m willing to take and I think for me being a new mom being in Australia not with much support I want that quick recovery and that’s kind of what I’m after.
[Speaker 2] (8:14 – 8:25)
Yeah and that’s I think the key thing yeah I mean for me I had two vaginal deliveries and one c-section and the c-sections are there are a recovery process there’s no doubt no Tasha?
[Speaker 1] (8:26 – 9:43)
Yeah absolutely so I mean there’s a big difference between a recovery between a c-section and vaginal deliveries I mean in South Africa you’re in hospital for longer with a caesarean section and I think it’s in Australia it’s the same so you’re in hospital for three days three nights and four days after a caesarean section and after a caesarean you know potentially I know in South Africa you can’t drive for three weeks in Australia I think it might be longer I think it might be six weeks I mean also yeah six weeks so they’re quite they’re quite strict on that there’s no exercising you can’t lift anything heavier than your babies basically so you know you can’t go out and take your two babies in the car seats and by yourself so you shouldn’t really be doing any kind of strenuous activity so walking is obviously you know you can do walking but no more than that for six weeks and just even the nature of handling twins and getting up out of bed and waking up in the night it’s obviously more challenging when you when you do have a caesarean section.
With the vaginal delivery I mean the recovery is almost I wouldn’t say instant I mean depending on your on your vaginal delivery and depending on you know if you’ve had episiotomies or tears but I mean you can exercise pretty much as soon as you feel up and ready and you can get in the car and drive yourself home if you wanted to so it’s so much quicker it really really is.
[Speaker 2] (9:44 – 9:50)
And so Zoe are they going to induce you then because obviously they don’t want you to go too much further than 38 weeks potentially.
[Speaker 3] (9:51 – 10:10)
Yes I’m being induced so I’m actually going to the hospital tomorrow and that’s when they do the cervical sweep they’ll check and see if I’m ready for delivery. I will stay overnight for monitoring and then they’ll be breaking the waters early Wednesday morning and then the boys should make their arrival when they’re ready.
[Speaker 1] (10:10 – 10:39)
All systems go. Yeah I mean just to just to add I mean I think so many people are also so terrified about the size of their babies you know in South Africa when somebody says gosh my my gynae thinks that my baby’s going to be over four kilogrammes and I’m going to have to have a caesarean and it’s really not you know the size of the baby is not as important as the position of the baby so yeah I think the fact that your baby’s in the right position even though I mean do you what’s the what’s the size of your babies now do you know?
[Speaker 3] (10:40 – 11:47)
They should be about 2.5 2.6 my last scan was two weeks ago and they were both just shy of being 2.4 and I think the big thing that I also asked the medical team was are they confident to deliver a breech baby in the event baby B is breech and they did say they statistically they’re very confident to do that so for me I’m just like okay well you’ve you’ve put all my fear aside because it was a tough decision to make you know do do we do the c-section route um hubby’s only getting two weeks off and mom is only arriving in April to come and assist so for me I think it was a big bounce going back and forth I was very torn you you you read online of various other twin moms and their experiences and I think the big thing for me was each twin delivery is different just like the twins will be different and I found doing research online it freaked me out um but having all those questions and speaking to the obstetrician it really just put my own mind at ease.
[Speaker 1] (11:48 – 12:18)
Yeah and the reality is I mean I guess the the healthcare teams in Australia are potentially more not more experienced but I guess they potentially do deliver um breech babies more often than South African practitioners because it’s so rare to have vaginal deliveries these days um it’s almost like midwives and obstetricians are losing their skills because they hardly do them anymore so um you know if your baby was to turn breech you you are in good hands because yeah because they’ve got more more exposure to it.
[Speaker 2] (12:19 – 13:05)
Very interesting Tasha. So Tasha you know I mean I always think about those first few hours after birth as being very important and so these beautiful babies are going to come into the world if they were singletons they would probably be placed immediately on their mommy’s chest and then have some time with her and we like to have little ones to latch really early and to be left with their kind of cords pumping for a few minutes you know I mean there’s a there’s a there’s a whole lot of things that we write into our birth plans when we’re planning for a singleton. Of course it’s a different situation so can you talk Zoe and I through what she can expect in the first few hours after birth and what she can be aiming for obviously maintaining mental flexibility that things might not work out exactly as she plans but um what can she look for in terms of a twin delivery afterwards?
[Speaker 1] (13:06 – 15:51)
So I mean I guess it all depends on what delivery you have so I mean if we if we’re talking about vaginal deliveries um I mean it’s so varied at you know the one baby arrives and then potentially how long after does the second baby arrive so I mean with any vaginal delivery as soon as baby arrives we want to put your baby to your chest so skin to skin as soon as that as possible um and then placenta obviously gets delivered um delayed cord clamping is you know something that should be a gold standard I mean it’s it’s so important that we do do that delayed cord clamping so this is something I don’t know if your um your obstetrician has spoken to you about but you know then potentially your second baby arrives and there’s no reason why your babies can’t be on your chest so I think the obstacle of skin to skin with twin deliveries is that potentially a lot of them are born early so you know twins are potentially born at 32 weeks or 33 weeks you know they say about 50 percent of a set of twins are born early but you are in the very lucky position that your babies are essentially full term and not many moms get to that point so you are already you know got such a huge advantage the fact that your babies are nearly 38 weeks this their sucks are going to be stronger they’re going to be more alert they’re going to be more receptive to feeding it’s amazing to see how a baby born at 40 weeks compared to a baby who’s born at 37 weeks how much better that baby is in 40 weeks of breastfeeding because they’re so much more alert and awake and their suck is stronger so you know your babies can come to your chest as soon as possible with a vaginal delivery and also with a caesarean section there is no reason why your babies cannot come to your chest and they’re quite little you know some twins are born over three kilogrammes but having those twins together on your chest as soon as they’re born one will join you first the second one will join you second after they’ve been examined by the paediatrician and that feeling of having those two babies on your chest is just like oh I just get goosebumps just thinking about it it’s just the most magical beautiful experience and some moms you know they don’t feel they they potentially if you don’t feel well after the caesarean or the vaginal delivery a lot of moms get quite shaky and shivery afterwards and dad is the next best thing for skin to skin so you know dad I always recommend dads to wear something loose fitting like a v-neck shirt or an open neck shirt that they can actually put the second baby down their top as well so if you feel overwhelmed by having two babies on you and having them separately one with mom one with dad is also fantastic but keeping them together and it’s so incredible to see when babies arrive and they’re crying crying crying the minute they get onto your chest they just settle and they’re calm and everything’s regulated by skin to skin so their heart rate their blood pressure their temperature their breathing and it’s yeah it’s just absolutely key that they get onto your chest as soon as possible.
[Speaker 3] (15:51 – 15:55)
oh you’re making me very excited now
[Speaker 2] (15:58 – 16:07)
Zoe had you kind of started to think about those first few minutes afterwards and what you would like and does that kind of align with what you’re thinking
[Speaker 3] (16:07 – 16:45)
That’s what I was hoping, to explain to my husband what delayed cord clamping was and when we did our antenatal classes with the midwife at the hospital where we’re delivering she said there it’s standard practise they try and wait about two minutes before they clamp the cord and then I was told that baby a will come out baby b will come out and then only the placenta so that for me was quite interesting I assumed it would be baby then placenta baby then placenta but she said no they bring both babies out and then at the end they deliver the placenta but yeah I think we’re just gonna be open-minded and
[Speaker 1] (16:45 – 17:26)
see how it all plays out I mean I think it’s the same with with any any labour you know that’s why we call it a trial of labour we go into labour and we see we see how it is and I think it’s good to manage your expectations and it sounds like you have of that birth because I think so many people are so set on having a specific birth and when it doesn’t turn out the way they wanted to it’s so disappointing for them and it’s it’s a huge amount of emotion and they just a lot of moms actually suffer with anxiety and depression afterwards because their birth didn’t match up to that huge expectation so you know it’s it’s fantastic that you do have that reality of potentially it won’t
[Speaker 2] (17:26 – 17:52)
go the way you wanted to but yeah and it’s been a very big theme always on my podcast whenever we’ve had a mom around birth and immediately after birth the whole theme of mental flexibility because I think that your mental health in general later is a whole lot better when you’ve been flexible up front during the birth process because it might not turn out exactly as you wanted and particularly in this case as well so yeah mental flexibility is where it’s at.
[Speaker 3] (17:53 – 18:23)
Yeah I feel like with all the the podcasts I’ve been listening to and you know everyone sharing their stories and my my own research I generally found that to be a little bit of a pattern but the moms that didn’t have that flexibility around their birth plan ended up having very traumatic birth experiences so for me I just said you know what I will I’ll have an idea I kind of said what I don’t want and let’s just see if if that’s you know I’m open to anything in that regard.
[Speaker 2] (18:23 – 18:46)
Yeah amazing so let’s pivot back to feeding because now we’ve got our little ones on our chest either immediately after birth or a few minutes afterwards or a little bit later but early latching is very much a part of establishing good breastfeeding so Tasha how does that work because we’ve got two breasts two babies it’s hard enough to coordinate getting a newborn one baby onto a breast how should Zoe be approaching that?
[Speaker 4] (18:47 – 19:25)
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[Speaker 2] (19:27 – 19:29)
How should Zoe be approaching that?
[Speaker 1] (19:30 – 25:07)
Yeah so I mean gosh I can speak for hours on this there’s so much to there’s so much to it I think the the first thing to I guess note is that a lot of people feel like they won’t have enough milk you know how on earth am I going to make enough milk for two babies like how am I going to produce milk and how am I physically going to do this so I mean the reality is you’ve got two placentas when your placentas shear away from your uterine wall and there’s a huge drop in progesterone and because your system now has got so much progesterone there’s a little message to your brain that’s going no or lessened amount of progesterone I need to start triggering prolactin so prolactin is your milk making hormone and because you’ve got more and hormones than a normal singleton pregnancy your body is going to be making more prolactin so your body knows there’s two babies here to feed I’m going to make enough milk so a lot of people say um you know yeah you won’t have enough milk I mean my own experience already somebody put doubt in my mind as soon as some my babies were born they said well go feed your baby but you probably won’t have enough so top them up with formula so necessarily there’s no reason why you won’t make enough milk for your baby and yes that hour after your babies are born we just call that the golden hour so often babies are very alert at that time and there’s a huge flood of oxytocin for you and a huge flood of oxytocin from your babies and it’s a really amazing time to initiate that breastfeeding so when you have a vaginal delivery you know obviously because you the caesar as soon as the babies are born the caesar the the longest part of the caesar actually happens after your babies are born so your babies are lying on your chest and you’re lying kind of flat on your back so it’s quite difficult to start breastfeeding in theatre but as soon as you come out of theatre and you’re in recovery you can absolutely start breastfeeding then with a vaginal delivery you obviously get settled for that first hour you know obviously the babies the second baby and the placentas are delivered but then the midwives should help you position yourself to actually get your babies on first prize is to feed your babies at the same time so this is quite higher grade as well so there’s not many in my experience um there’s not many moms who can breastfeed both babies at the same time but it is absolutely possible and it is so much easier when your babies are older so again you’ve got an advantage that your babies are older their sucking is stronger so they potentially will have an ability to feed so much better than the babies if they’re obviously born at 32 or 33 weeks so you know babies who are born that early they’re in you know neonatal intensive care for a while they’re potentially tube fed then they’re bottle fed and then they’re only breastfed and this potentially can take four or five weeks down the line but you as soon as your babies are born they can latch on and you know we’re not looking for that perfect latch as soon as they arrive it’s a matter of coming onto your breast putting their mouths around your nipple just them being on your on your breasts and even that stimulation of the skin to skin on your breasts and the nipple stimulation that immediately will get the oxytocin going so don’t panic about the fact that you can’t get your babies on immediately because there it’s quite a thing it’s quite a thing putting one and then the other um but the midwives in the hospital will definitely enable you to do that and help you do that um something which i have to also say is the fact that you support support support i mean there is no it’s very difficult to breastfeed two babies at the same time without an extra pair of hands they’re the i probably say the the only reason that i was able to breastfeed my twins together for many many many months was because of my husband it was a complete game changer for every single feed he was there day and night i mean it was absolutely fantastic so doing to yeah feeding breast feeding babies together the breast is is challenging but it is possible but it really helps to have have an extra set of hands and i think also the the difference in babies so you’ve got to assess how your babies feed potentially one baby will be an excellent feeder and other baby will be a little bit more challenging so you’ve got to look at them separately potentially feed one by itself feed the other one by itself and then when you’re confident feeding those then you kind of put them together so you don’t have to feed them together at the same time because yeah you might put one on and then the other one doesn’t go on and it’s very difficult to concentrate on the one when the other one’s not feeding so yeah don’t um again it’s about managing expectations yes we would love to breastfeed our babies together at the same time because it is so much easier than pumping and feeding different at different times but again it’s managing expectations so you know you do what you can with your help and and there’s different ways of breastfeeding twins as well so you know potentially as i said both together um some moms like to breastfeed one baby and then at the same time the other baby is bottle feeding so the one person’s bottle feeding and that you are breastfeeding and then the next feed then you’re going to swap um yeah so it depends you know if that bottle is express milk or if that bottle is formula so yeah we can go into that as well um but yeah there’s different there’s different kind of possibilities um but yeah i mean for for you who are your baby’s a full term ideally we want to have them feeding together at the same time have you have you um had any antenatal sessions with a lactation consultant or chatted about how you’re going to feed your babies have you had any guidance so far
[Speaker 3] (25:08 – 25:51)
i’ve um yes i’ve had some guidance i did an online breastfeeding um seminar um it’s one of those things where you can do all the research you want in the world you can look at all the videos it’s just once that baby is there it’s going to be trial and error to get the right latch um to see if they’ll both latch well um the goal for me is to tandem feed i can imagine in the beginning it’s going to feel like i’m just constantly feeding babies if i’m doing it separately but um my husband’s very hands-on so i think it’s going to be such a beautiful experience to figure out these little boys and to see you know how we can feed them as quickly as possible and together yeah
[Speaker 1] (25:51 – 26:11)
exactly and i think also having the correct setup like physically where you are you know are you sitting on a chair are you sitting in a bed are you sitting on a couch do you have the right cushions so positioning is so important as well because i mean you’re going to be spending hours you know hours and hours feeding these babies so yeah having the right setup so that you’re
[Speaker 2] (26:11 – 26:21)
comfortable is is really important as well and do you have recommendations on that tasha is a couch with two breastfeeding cushions better than a chair i mean what what do you suggest yes exactly
[Speaker 1] (26:21 – 27:15)
that so i often so you know a lot of twin mums buy these beautiful rocking chairs and armchairs i hope you haven’t bought one of those yet maybe you have but um i find the recommendation i mean because i found this easier myself but also for other moms is to have a couch just because you need that space you know so sitting in the middle couch you’ve got your breastfeeding cushion on you’ve got potentially another little cushion on your left another little cushion on your right to prop each baby up at the same time um because you know they’re not going to latch on immediately together potentially one will start five minutes before the other one and then you’ll grab the other one and put the other one on so having space around you is is you definitely need space so either on a couch um or a bed definitely yeah i find that the armchair is tricky because you’re not much space you can’t grab one up off the floor and so yeah space definitely lots of space okay
[Speaker 2] (27:15 – 27:31)
interesting and you mentioned something interesting there tasha just now around express breast milk so um you know at what points should zoe be thinking about expressing is it worth thinking about it or should she just wing it for a while where’s your head on that yeah so ideally the
[Speaker 1] (27:31 – 28:59)
thing is yeah ideally we want your babies to feed from from the breast because it’s so much easier than expressing putting in a bottle and then feeding as well because that’ll obviously minimise your feeding time you know if breastfeeding goes beautifully and both babies are feeding well from the breast there’s no reason why you need to pump immediately so even in signals since we recommend waiting to pump anything kind of after four to six weeks just because you’re focussing on the feeding and there’s not really a lot of time to actually express because you’re feeding burping changing and then when on earth do i have time to express but you know there’s lots of different scenarios potentially if your one baby is able to breastfeed but your other baby isn’t able to breastfeed for some reason and they can’t latch efficiently then potentially you will need to pump so you know if one baby is feeding from the one breast potentially you can pump from the other breast um but i think you know really for the first four to six weeks we really just want to concentrate on the breastfeeding and just and yeah kind of focus on that and getting latching where baby’s latching but yeah it’s all going to depend on when your babies are born sorry it’s all going to depend on how they are when they um when they arrive yeah so i mean a lot of dads obviously want to get involved as well so you know again even if you’re having one baby kind of try and wait until four to six weeks because we want to establish that breast um the milk supply and and the breastfeeding so yeah don’t panic too much have you bought any breast pumps at all have you got a breastpump?
[Speaker 3] (0:00 – 0:41)
Yes, I have a hospital grade breast pump, kind of figured that’s going to be the best way to go about it. We also did extensive research on the pillows, so we got one of those twin Z pillows that every twin mom highly recommended. I do have a question, I think something that the literature obviously constantly refers to with nipple confusion.
I know when we did our antenatal class, they said hold off before you introduce a bottle, but for me, I like the idea of the babies being able to breastfeed and bottle feed. Is it possible to do both without creating nipple confusion?
[Speaker 1] (0:42 – 3:13)
Gosh, absolutely. The thing is, when we talk about nipple confusion, I don’t really see this nipple confusion, I see it more as flow confusion. You read a lot about nipple confusion and how putting a teat in your baby is going to affect their breastfeeding and their latching, but the reality is, it’s not the shape of the nipple that confuses baby, it’s the flow of the milk that confuses baby.
Potentially, for the first, say your baby’s arrived and they can’t breastfeed for some reason, and for the first six to eight weeks, you’re only bottle feeding your baby, or potentially you start breastfeeding and then for a good three, four, five weeks, you can only bottle feed your baby for whatever reason. When your baby goes back to the breast, what happens when you breastfeed, babies get on the breast and they suck, suck, suck, suck, suck, they stimulate to let down, and then there’s a wave of milk that comes, and then it slows down and they suck, suck, suck, and another wave of milk comes, whereas with the bottle feeding, you put the bottle in the mouth, the milk is there instantaneously, and it’s a constant flow of milk. They start to get not lazy, but they start to get used to that, and then when they go back to the breast, they’re like, hold on a moment, this is taking way too long, and there’s all these dips and lulls in the milk flow, and this is really irritating me, and they start fussing, and they don’t like that at all, but I only see this when babies have had frequent bottles for weeks and weeks and weeks, and so many parents are worried about this, but honestly, if say you start bottle feeding your babies around four weeks, if your babies have one bottle a day, or one bottle every couple of days, there is no way that they are going to confuse between the bottle and the breast.
It’s only prolonged use of bottles that starts to irritate them, so things to remember is something called paced bottle feeding. I don’t know if you’ve heard of paced bottle feeding. Paced bottle feeding is just mimicking what breastfeeding is, so it’s a matter of holding the bottle in the correct position, not making the milk come out too fast, getting a very slow flow bottle as well.
Some of the bottles are really fast flow, so they come out very, very quickly, and they can finish a bottle within five minutes, whereas if we have a slow flow bottle, we want that bottle to last for a lot longer, so it’s a matter of doing paced bottle feeding, slowing the speed of the bottle, but it’s something that so many people are worried about, but it’s something that can be managed, and lots of babies go between bottles and breasts for months and months and months.
[Speaker 2] (3:13 – 5:00)
I’d also like to mention there, because this whole thing of nipple confusion is such a hot topic, because people are very fixated on the only way to feed your baby is breast, which of course we know is not the only way, and so then there’s don’t feed them any bottles for the first six weeks, and don’t give them any dummies, and I come from the perspective that actually dummies are great. I feel like they’re a tool that if we remove them from our toolkit, we’ve kind of got one less tool to calm our babies with, and Zoe, I’m sure that you know that little ones are often very calm for the first two weeks, and so we have what we call the honeymoon period, where they tend to sleep for quite long stretches between feeds if they’re getting nice milk, and then at about two weeks old, they kind of wake up and get a little bit more irritable and more likely to cry a little bit more, and that crying peaks at about six weeks and disappears by 12 weeks. We call it the crying curve, and during that period, it’s so important that you do have a lot of tools, things like swaddling and white noise and carriers and slings, and I’m a big advocate of all of those, but one of the things is a dummy, and I really do think dummies are fabulous.
I think where nipple confusion can come in is when you’re fobbing off a feed with a dummy, so baby’s hungry and crying for milk, and you’re just kind of extending them, and I mean you hear stories about people putting grout water on the dummy to extend the feed time to four hours or something, and that’s what we don’t want to do, so what we want to do is we want to use dummies as non-nutritive sucking, especially after a feed if they’re a little bit irritable, because then you won’t create nipple confusion.
They’re not sucking the dummy because they’re hungry. They’re sucking the dummy because they’re getting their little peristalsis going and digesting their milk, so I do love dummies. I don’t know if you agree, Tasha.
[Speaker 1] (5:01 – 7:08)
Yeah, I absolutely love dummies. I mean, from a professional point of view and a personal point of view, I mean there is no way I could have survived my babies without dummies. You know, as a certified lactation consultant, I probably shouldn’t be, what’s the word, not pushing dummies, but again, you know, the literature says it makes breastfeeding more difficult and confuses them, but in practise I have never seen that.
I think in all my years that I’ve been doing this, I think I’ve had one mom say to me, I gave my baby a dummy and now they won’t breastfeed, so I think it’s, you know, it’s especially important with twins because there will be moments where you will be by yourself with two babies. One will be crying. You might have them on your breast and the other one will be crying and you can’t get to them immediately or, you know, you need to position the first baby before you get the second baby and having that dummy as a comfort is huge.
I mean, I don’t know actually how many parents, how they survive without dummies, to be honest. So, I mean, yeah, the dummy conversation is quite a contentious issue with some people, but it’s all about using it in the right moment. So, as Meg said, you know, you’re not prolonging feeds.
You’re using it as a comfort. When they’re comforted, you can actually take it out. You know, it can fall out.
You can take it out and it’s about using the right dummy as well. There are so many different dummies out there. The reality is, you know, the orthodontic shaped dummies with a kind of flatter little teat, we know those are the best for oral development.
But in my experience, a lot of babies don’t take those. So, we encourage you to use them, but a lot of the time they don’t take them. So, often the little bulbous ones, little round ones, I find a lot of babies take those, but use those temporarily.
And then once babies are more confident in taking dummies, then you move them over to the better shaped dummies. But having a dummy is a complete game changer. I think especially having two babies, you will be very thankful.
What is the kind of approach in Australia? Have you been guided at all about using dummies or not using dummies?
[Speaker 3] (7:09 – 7:51)
I think each midwife has their own opinion and view on it. So, in our antenatal classes, the lady that did host the classes, she wasn’t very keen on the dummy. And I said to my husband afterwards, I’m like, she’s not coming home with us.
We are believing in the dummy. We’re going to do what’s best for us. And I grew up with friends who’ve got babies and my mom used a dummy, my sister used a dummy.
And if you wean your kid off the dummy at a decent age, it shouldn’t affect their dental development. So, it’s not like we’re planning on having the kid use the dummy for years and years. It’s just that soothing factor in the beginning.
[Speaker 2] (7:52 – 8:32)
I love that. Well, this has been an incredible episode. And Zoe, you said the biggest truth there.
You said they’re not coming home with us. And I think it’s such an important message to actually hold on to the next few weeks. You’re going to have opinions thrown at you about everything imaginable over the next couple of weeks and years, but they don’t live in your home.
It’s you, it’s your journey and it’s an incredibly special journey. So, we really do wish you all the best, Zoe. The next 48 hours, we’ll all be watching our social media, hanging on every word to see when these little boys arrive.
And yeah, I just wish you the most wonderful journey and keep that mental flexibility and enjoy it.
[Speaker 3] (8:33 – 8:56)
Thank you. Thank you, Meg. Thank you, Tasha.
This has been so incredible. I’m quite surprised at the peace and calm and excitement that I’m feeling. I’m pretty sure once I get to the hospital, a little bit of nerves will creep in.
But yeah, we are so ready. We are so excited for these boys to arrive. And then, yeah, then we’re just going to try and survive.
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (8:56 – 10:18)
And I think, be kind to yourself. You know, I think there’s this expectation of you’ve got to do it all. You know, I’m a twin mom now and I’ve got to manage by myself.
And the reality is it’s challenging looking after one baby. It’s very challenging looking after two babies. So, lots of support if you can.
Get your little village around you. And yeah, just be okay with asking for help. I think so many moms are like, oh, it’s fine.
I’ll do it by myself. Ask for help. You need it.
You absolutely need it. And just because you’re needing it doesn’t mean that you’re failing. It’s a challenge being a mom of two.
So, yeah, just be kind and gentle yourself and just enjoy it. It’s the most incredible experience. You and your husband.
You know, I think one of the things we were talking about is like a myth of having twins. What’s the myth of having twins? I remember my guy and he said to me, you do know that 50% of twin parents end up in divorce.
So, this was when we were about seven weeks pregnant. And I thought, oh, my God, here we go. What is this going to be like?
And it was the complete opposite. It completely brought us together because we just did everything together. You know, we did the feeding together.
We did the bathing together. We did the changing together. And we were just such a team.
So, I’m really excited for you and your husband to build this incredible family. And yeah, good luck with everything. I’m really excited for you.
It’s just the most beautiful experience. So, yeah, good luck. All the best.
[Speaker 3] (10:18 – 10:29)
Thank you. I joke and say, I think there’s a reason we’re getting twins because he’s always wanted to be a dad. And I think if we ended up having a singleton, I would never see that baby.
So, that’s why we’re having twins.
[Speaker 1] (10:31 – 10:33)
It defies over it.
[Speaker 2] (10:34 – 10:45)
Well, Zoe, all the best. And we definitely will catch up again. So, enjoy the journey and enjoy those precious boys when they’re lying on your chest.
Thank you, Meg. Thank you, Tasha. I really appreciate it.
[Speaker 1] (10:45 – 10:46)
All the best.
[Speaker 3] (10:46 – 10:47)
Cheers. Okay. Bye.
[Speaker 4] (10:49 – 10:58)
Thanks to everyone who joined us. We will see you the same time next week. Until then, download ParentSense app and take the guesswork out of parenting.
Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.
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