[0:00 – 1:19]
Meg Faure: In today’s episode of Sense by Meg Faure, we are joined by our regular guests Tasha Perreard and Zoe Brown for a real, relatable and info-packed conversation every mom of a baby or babies needs to hear. Today Zoe shares the emotional story of discovering that she was pregnant with twins which happened to happen today one year ago. She opens up about the joys and the challenges of life with two little ones from feeding and sleep to post-vaccine tummy issues and to adjusting to a new city. What you will learn if you tune in today, we talk about what the 17-week sleep regression means and how to manage it without bad habits, how to spot signs that your baby’s ready for solids and why it doesn’t have to be stressful, how probiotics and maybe vitamin D can help with runny tummies post the rotavirus vaccine, why one twin might sleep through the night and why the other one wakes and this is all to do with how sensory thresholds play a role and of course how to build connection and confidence when you’re feeling a little isolated in motherhood. This episode is packed with practical advice and emotional support perfect for any mom who’s navigating the fourth trimester and beyond.
[1:19 – 2:01]
Announcer: Welcome to Sense by Meg Faure, the podcast that’s brought to you by ParentSense, the app that takes guesswork out of parenting. If you’re a new parent then you are in good company. Your host Meg Faure is a well-known OT, infant specialist and the author of eight parenting books. Each week we’re going to spend time with new mums and dads just like you to chat about the week’s wins, the challenges and the questions of the moment. Subscribe to the podcast, download the ParentSense app and catch Meg here every week to make the most of that first year of your little one’s life and now meet your host.
[2:01 – 2:48]
Meg Faure: Welcome back mums and dads as always it is just wonderful to have you here with us and we have two of our regular guests Zoe Brown. Welcome Zoe.
Zoe Brown: Hi Meg, it’s always so lovely to catch up with you.
Meg Faure: Yeah it’s really lovely, I’m just loving our kind of two weekly/monthly touch bases to hear about beautiful Jordan and Luke and what they’re up to and then we’ve also got Tasha with us. Tasha has been a, she’s a nursing sister who is also a lactation consultant. She runs a very busy clinic in Cape Town so for our Cape Town mummies you can go and seek Tasha out particularly if you’ve got twins because that’s her area of speciality. So welcome Tasha, it’s wonderful to have you always with us.
[2:48 – 2:53]
Tasha Perreard: Thank you so much, I love, yeah I’m really enjoying being here and chatting to you guys.
[2:53 – 2:57]
Meg Faure: Excellent yeah, so Zoe how old are our little boys now?
[2:57 – 4:03]
Zoe Brown: They are now four and a half weeks… weeks I mean months, they’re four and a half months old and I realised today you know how your phone often reminds you of a year ago today, a year ago today I found out I was pregnant with twins. I just brought back so many memories because I took a photo in like a little selfie in the lift and just as a bit of a you know what because I wasn’t sure what was going to happen at this doctor’s appointment. I was expecting the worst you know when you google your symptoms and it’s just everything every doctor always tells you never to do. I did exactly that and I just took the photo to to let myself know you know like right now you don’t know what’s happening so just remember this moment and I got reminded of it today that it’s been a year since I’ve known we’re going to have twins.
[4:03 – 4:10]
Meg Faure: Amazing and what was that feeling like when you’re lying on the doctor’s table and you’re kind of looking for a heartbeat, how did that all unfold?
[4:10 – 5:10]
Zoe Brown: Oh for me it was very nerve-wracking so I went to the appointment with the instructions “come with a full bladder” and I did that and the lady who I went to an all-female ultrasound clinic and she said to me if she cannot see clearly during the external she’ll ask me to go empty the bladder and do an internal and that was exactly the case. I think she saw what she did and she needed to confirm and then she just asked me “do you mind if we do an internal?” so she left the room I emptied my bladder got undressed and then just before she did the internal I like burst into tears because it just brought back memories from just a couple of months earlier when we went for our first ultrasound when we were pregnant the first time and we were told there was no heartbeat so that just brought back memories of having to have the same scan so I was anticipating the worst and then she was like “okay well you were worried about no heartbeat I see two.”
[5:10 – 5:14]
Meg Faure: Amazing and that must have been a bit of a shock because…
Zoe Brown: That was a big shock. Was your husband there with you at the time?
[5:14 – 5:35]
Zoe Brown: No and I feel so bad because I was the one that insisted “please don’t come” because he was with the last one where we received the devastating news and I was like “all right let me just get the bad news over and done with I’ll message you” because we were convinced it was an ectopic pregnancy based on what Google said and then yeah it wasn’t and then I had to message him and be like “call me when you’re done with your meeting.”
[5:35 – 5:44]
Meg Faure: What was his reaction?
Zoe Brown: Well I first spoke to him and I was like “listen I’m going to send you something on whatsapp” and as I sent him the picture he saw the A and the B he’s like “no.”
[5:44 – 6:05]
Tasha Perreard: I don’t think anything ever prepares you when you see those two sacks. No no exactly I know it’s incredible so I think so many people um yeah I think so many people asked me “what was your reaction when you found out you were having twins?” and I think everybody expects the reaction to be so bad like “oh my god” you know so many people are terrified of having twins but for me I mean it was the most exciting moment of my life my husband also wasn’t there as well unfortunately.
[6:05 – 6:21]
Tasha Perreard: And I mean so many people say “oh I burst into tears and my husband burst into tears and we were like oh my god what are we gonna do?” but I mean for me it was yeah absolutely incredible I mean what an amazing moment to realise you’re welcoming two little babies.
Meg Faure: It differs for every mum because you’ll have mums who’ve I mean I had a friend who had three kids already decided to have a fourth and it turned out to be twins.
Tasha Perreard: Oh my god okay okay I would I would be crying then I would definitely be crying in that kind of circumstance.
[6:21 – 6:23]
Meg Faure: Yeah really amazing.
[6:23 – 6:42]
Meg Faure: So four and a half months old it’s an amazing milestone Zoe tell us some of the wins and the challenges and the questions of the moment.
Zoe Brown: So some of the wins I’m getting beautiful stretches of sleep from one of the babies from Jordan unfortunately after they had their four month vaccines Luke one of the vaccines they received the nurse did say to me “listen one of the side effects is a bit of a runny tummy so it can last up to a week” and it’s been two weeks and we are still battling this runny tummy.
[6:42 – 7:25]
Zoe Brown: It’s not as bad as it was the first week and I spoke to a friend she mentioned to me that she normally knows that her little one is starting the teething process when they get a bit of a runny tummy so I don’t know if the two is maybe merging if it’s still side effects from the four month vaccines that they receive but this mama is tired but it’s also I think I’m worried so if I don’t get up because you know I don’t hear it while I’m sleeping but if when I hear it I can you know immediately change his nappy and nip it in the bud before the little bum turns red but there’s been an evening where it must have happened while we were all sleeping and he didn’t fuss until he started fussing and I was like let me just check your nappy and I saw he had a bit of a runny tummy so yeah then the bum was a bit red so it’s just been constantly with him changing nappies and just giving him extra feeds to make sure he doesn’t get dehydrated.
[7:25 – 7:40]
Meg Faure: Yeah so Tasha I would love to do a deep dive into runny tummies because you know it’s I think there could be a multitude of reasons behind this. I haven’t actually heard of the vaccine causing it before and I’d love to have your take on that Tasha but let’s talk about what is a normal tummy, when should we call the doctor, when should we be worried and what can Zoe do about that?
[7:40 – 8:58]
Tasha Perreard: Yeah I mean I guess just going talking about the vaccine so in the South African schedule we obviously do the vaccines at six, ten and fourteen weeks and at ten sorry at six weeks and at fourteen weeks we do a vaccine called the rotavirus which is the rotavirus vaccine so yeah the rotavirus is a virus that causes quite severe vomiting and diarrhoea and the risk with that is that obviously if a small baby gets the rotavirus then actually they can dehydrate because they are just vomiting and diarrhoea and they’re obviously losing a lot of fluid so some clinics actually in South Africa instead of giving the rotavirus vaccine at six weeks we actually give it at ten weeks because we find that most babies tolerate it the older they get but we do know that yeah definitely one of the side effects of the rotavirus is that it does cause lots of cramping it’s almost like it’s a live vaccine as well so we give you a little bit of the virus but actually like you get the virus in a very kind of mild manner but yeah cramps and winds and lots of runny poos but it definitely shouldn’t be lasting for two weeks so I normally kind of find that most babies are okay after three, four, five days maximum but I definitely find that after two weeks they should kind of be okay after the vaccine so it might be a combination of the teething and yeah definitely as babies start drooling and teething there’s obviously a lot of kind of extra saliva and mucus that they’re swallowing which can make their poos kind of runny but also quite mucousy so it’s almost quite snotty in a nappy. I mean is he very crampy at all like do you find that he’s uncomfortable and crampy or is it just the runny poos that are that are happening?
[8:58 – 9:44]
Zoe Brown: It’s just the runny poos happening and that means he’s been waking up a little bit more than his brother at night so where we would normally just have one feed during the night. Shame, I need to clarify I do think my boys you know because I start my day so early technically their second feed is when I start my day so to me it just feels like I do one feed at night but where I was used to doing just the one feed at night and then starting my day between five and six in the morning and that’s when they have their second feed he now has three feeds throughout the night but I think it’s just whatever he’s going through he just wants a little bit of extra milk so I’m just giving it to him.
[9:44 – 10:35]
Tasha Perreard: Yes but remember also I can’t remember if we spoke about this last time but they’re four and a half months you said and babies the majority of babies go through the sleep regression so it sounds like your babies have progressed so beautifully with their sleep and now they’re kind of regressing which is so so so common and so appropriate for this age a lot of people don’t notice that regression because a lot of people don’t have a progression like there’s some babies who still feed like every three hours you know when they’re three four five months old and but they’re like “oh what regression?” because it’s still the same but I guess because your boys have been stretching so beautifully now that they’ve kind of picked up a feed like “oh my gosh I’m not used to this anymore what’s going on” but so so so appropriate it’s often like not a wonderful like there’s a bit of a sleep what I should say blip kind of between four and six months where the sleep goes all haywire again.
[10:35 – 10:48]
Meg Faure: And I’d love to pick up on that and I also want to pick up on the teething but before we go there Tasha is there anything that Zoe can do in terms of probiotics or anything that she can do for her little one for little Luke in terms of his runny tummy?
[10:48 – 11:42]
Tasha Perreard: Yeah I mean we absolutely recommend probiotics I mean there are so many different probiotics on the market out there so ultimately you just want to get a probiotic a multi-strain probiotic so probiotic that’s kind of got a diverse range of different strains of probiotics and also what a lot of the probiotics these days in South Africa they’re combining with vitamin D as well so I don’t know if your boys are taking vitamin D too so that’s also one of the recommendations that most babies have in South Africa.
Zoe Brown: Okay I’m giving them both of them probiotics so they’re definitely getting that and I mean you know me googling again but I basically I think I reached that point where I just googled “when does a runny tummy in a baby when is it a cause for concern” and it listed a whole bunch of things and he doesn’t have anything that goes with a runny tummy it’s at the moment just a runny tummy I went through the same thing when we changed formula and Jordan had the runny tummy and it just overnight stopped at about just after two weeks when most people said to me “oh it will last about two weeks” so we are at the tail end of it but yeah we are just doing the probiotics at the moment so I need to maybe also add the vitamin D.
[11:42 – 11:59]
Tasha Perreard: I think I guess the cause for concern is the comfort level so he is incredibly uncomfortable and crampy and crying and obviously vomiting then obviously you definitely go and have him checked out but if it’s just the runny tummy and he’s happy in himself and he’s feeding okay and still drinking good volumes then yeah we just kind of let it run its course.
[12:00 – 13:00]
Meg Faure: Excellent yeah and then I just want to switch across to the teething question because it’s one that I get asked a lot from about 12 weeks onwards where moms particularly because babies start to find their hands and they’re chewing on their hands and so then the mom thinks “oh this is teething” and you know I just wanted to say that you know teething it gets quite a bad rap for a lot of things you know whether it’s sleepless nights or niggliness or rashes or runny tummies. Classically the first teeth only really come out after six months it’s actually a very small percentage of babies that teeth between four and five months most of them are teething after five months and actually the first teeth often come out only after six months so I don’t know that it’s necessarily teething although what teething does do as Tasha said is create a lot of liquid that they’re kind of a mucus that they’re swallowing and that does you know cause the runny tummy so I don’t know that it’s necessarily that but yeah certainly something that you could look out for in the next few weeks but I don’t think I wouldn’t say that he’s about to pop a tooth. Tasha would you agree?
[13:00 – 13:30]
Tasha Perreard: Yeah I mean it’s so difficult to say so many parents yeah we blame everything on teething exactly it’s like “oh I think there’s a tooth coming out oh I think there’s a tooth coming out” and then I mean people moms and dads are saying this until babies are 12 months old sometimes and there’s still not any teeth coming out so it’s so difficult I mean some babies do get teeth at four months I mean it’s not unusual for that to happen I mean some do are early teethers but definitely the majority is after six months. So many parents worry you know if their babies do get to 12 months and they don’t have teeth they’re like “oh my gosh I’m so worried” it’s like well there’s nothing you can do there’s no intervention that you can take to increase the growth of their teeth their teeth are there they will come out but they just pop out when they’re ready.
[13:30 – 14:52]
Meg Faure: A little later yeah absolutely and then the last thing I wanted to pick up on is that sleep regression I mean it kind of hangs over moms that 17 week sleep regression where moms are feeling like “oh this is you know this is gonna come” and you know there’s a couple of things there the one is that little ones sometimes do need a little bit extra nutrition at around about that age so the two main drivers for it the one is a little bit of extra nutrition which means that if you’re not wanting to start solids you just increase the milk feeds at night and during the day if needs be but some little ones actually need to move on to solids so that is sometimes an indicator around about that age and the other actual main driver for sleep regression is that they need to learn to self-soothe which they’re unable to do when they’re very little in the first three months after they’re born they’re not really self-soothing we’re doing a lot of the work for them and then around about this age they need to learn to self-soothe and so listening before we respond and assisting them to learn to self-soothe by getting them to their hands or just using our voice are all good strategies to use. I think the risk with the sleep regression comes that the baby starts to wake up more frequently at night mom panics because she doesn’t want to add in another milk feed so she starts dummying her baby like consistently so four five times at night just popping the dummy in and then what happens is that habits start to develop around expectations for dummies at night and then that’s when we start to see the dummy habit developing so I don’t know if they are on solids yet is it something that you’ve considered?
[14:52 – 15:23]
Zoe Brown: Well I’ve been reading your book and I’m gosh I think they are ready I’m not ready I feel like I need to finish the book before we can start but they are I think the more I’m talking to you know to you to friends they definitely I think they are ready to start that journey. I don’t know why I’m not ready but a lot of moms aren’t ready but I mean Meg you even said you know it’s a very like it doesn’t have to be an official thing like “we are starting on Monday at this time” it could be just you know a bit of butternut across the lips to see how they’ll react to it but yeah I don’t know why I’m not ready yet.
[15:23 – 15:36]
Meg Faure: Yeah yeah so I mean they are 20 weeks old now and I would say that around about now it would be worth having a look at solids. Tasha would you agree with that?
[15:36 – 16:13]
Announcer: This episode is brought to us by ParentSense the all-in-one baby and parenting app that help you make the most of your baby’s first year. Don’t you wish someone would just tell you everything you need to know about caring for your baby? When to feed them, how to wean them and why they won’t sleep? ParentSense app is like having a baby expert on your phone guiding you to parent with confidence. Get a flexible routine, daily tips and advice personalised for you and your little one. Download ParentSense app now from your app store and take the guesswork out of parenting.
[16:13 – 16:32]
Meg Faure: I would say that around about now it would be worth having a look at solids. Tasha would you agree with that?
Tasha Perreard: Yeah I think it all just depends on the baby and it depends on the mom. I mean you can see some babies are desperate for food from four months onwards and some babies are just not interested until much much much later. In South Africa a lot of moms go back to work at four months so it all feels very overwhelming to start solids at four months because moms are going back to work.
[16:32 – 18:25]
Tasha Perreard: There’s this horrendous sleep regression in some babies, you’re starting solids, you’re potentially handing your baby over to a caregiver or a crèche, and the thought of starting solids is just all too much. So I think sometimes people do delay it a little bit because of those circumstances. But you’ll definitely get a sense if your baby is ready because they’ll look interested in food. And it’s so much fun. It doesn’t have to be, I think, historically, a few years ago or longer, it was very much like a ceremonious sitting baby down, making the purees, putting a spoon in their mouth, getting the camera out, and it was all quite an event. Whereas now the thinking is just to be so casual about it. Like if you’re eating avo on toast one morning, take some on your finger, put it in their mouth. If you’re out and about, and there’s something that they can take from your plate, give it to them. So it was so regimented a few years ago about starting one little vegetable at a time. And now it’s so much more open and more exciting, really, and it shouldn’t be stressful. So play around with it and see how your babies respond. And obviously, one baby might love it, and one baby might not love it. And then you just obviously got to follow their lead, really, and treat them individually in their little feeding journey.
Meg Faure: Absolutely. Yeah.
Zoe Brown: I have a quick question just to go back to the sleep regression. Maybe, Tasha, I don’t know how you found it with your twins, but I am genuinely interested. Is it possible that it can affect one twin and not the other, or will both be going through it? Because at the moment, I’m getting 11, 12 hour stretches out of Jordan, and Luke is the one that’s up three times at night. So now I’m just kind of like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like when is Jordan going to be waking up a little bit more, or is it possible it’s just going to skip him and his brother’s taking it from him?
[18:25 – 19:24]
Tasha Perreard: Yeah. I mean, my gosh, that is a question I love to answer. I mean, I wish I had the answer for it, I should say. I mean, I kind of feel like if you’ve got to 20 weeks and there hasn’t been a regression yet, I kind of feel like you might be out of the woods, but I can’t put that in writing. I mean, yeah, we know that babies are so different in terms of sleep, but I feel like, yeah, I mean, if you kind of got this far and you haven’t experienced a bit of a blip, then so far, so good. But I mean, that doesn’t mean that he might not have a sleep regression around eight or nine months again, or potentially at 18 months, you know, and I find like with twins, or certainly with my twins, when one is going, things are going really well for one, the other one’s struggling a bit. And then when that one’s struggling, then the other one, so they almost like switch, they kind of switch. So yeah, it’s, that’s the thing with sleep. Like, you know, we kind of just really enjoy the times of good sleep, because we know that sometimes they are fleeting and there’s a little bit of a hiccup, and then we kind of go back to the other good periods of sleep. So yeah, I think don’t like, don’t anticipate it happening. I kind of feel like, yeah, I mean, it’s amazing. I mean, there are not many babies at 20 weeks old who are getting 11 to 12 hour sleep. I mean, that is amazing. It really is.
[19:24 – 20:53]
Meg Faure: And you know, I mean, I fully agree with Tasha that I think that once that you are probably through the woods with him, I think, you know, and I think we have babies that are classically good sleepers. And they generally are the little ones with the high thresholds, which Jordan does have. And so our babies who are more settled, more laid back, who don’t over-respond to things, they tend to not over-respond to things like hunger signals, or wind in their tummy, or a crease in their baby grow, or whatever it is that’s waking other babies when they come into their light state of sleep. So what happens with them is that their sensory systems just aren’t taking absolutely everything in. So they’re able to actually just sleep through all of the things that would otherwise wake a more sensitive baby up. So I do think that you can anticipate better sleep in general from Jordan going forward. Of course, I mean, as with anything with sleep, there will be a niggle that pops up, separation anxiety, or an illness. The both of those things tend to upend the apple cart for all babies. But what’s really interesting is that our good sleepers tend to go back to being good sleepers very quickly. It’s not a big lift to get them back into sleeping well. Our most sensitive babies tend to require a little bit more work from us in every single time. So whether it’s a nine-month separation anxiety sleep regression, which Tasha alluded to, or whether it’s the toddler imagination sleep regression, which also happens as well at about 18 to 24 months, those, you know, they just tend to fall back into their old pattern, whereas the other ones really over-respond to all of the upheavals in life. So it might end up being that this is your, this will be your journey, that Luke will over-respond at times and, you know, you have to work a little harder, but, you know, they’ll get there. The little sensitive ones bring other joys and sleep isn’t necessarily one of them.
[20:53 – 21:23]
Tasha Perreard: I mean, this is, I’m just thinking, I mean, even now, 11 years on, I mean, my daughter last night, the one who’s very sensory and the one who was quite a fussy baby, didn’t sleep very well, she got out of bed last night and was pulling her sheets because she hated all the rumples and the crinkles and like, she wants everything all nice and straight still for like 11 years on, she’s still like, likes everything smooth and calm and yeah, it’s funny. I mean, they’re just born the way they are. They’re just programmed who their little personalities are.
Meg Faure: And those are the sensory thresholds. I love that, Tasha, because it’s such a good example of how our more sensitive little ones do need things just so. I mean, I’ve also, my third one is like that. And the smallest upheaval, exams, change of location, anything, she just likes things to be just so. So it definitely is the journey with them.
[21:23 – 21:40]
Meg Faure: And Zoe, developmentally, because this is quite a fun age, this four to six month age, how are they doing developmentally? What’s going on for them?
Zoe Brown: They are, when they do tummy time, they can flip themselves over onto their back, not every single time, but they’re doing it. And then they are still exploring their hands. I’m still waiting for them to explore their feet. I mean, it’s winter.
[21:40 – 22:15]
Zoe Brown: So I just pop the heater on and I take the little socks off. I just want them, ’cause I love little baby feet. So I just want them to like engage with their feet. That’s not happening yet, but just to get them, you know, used to the rolling. I take, and I find it quite interesting where Luke is more flexible, where if I grab his feet and hands with my hands, I can swivel him from side to side, rock him left to right. Whereas Jordan, I’m like, “I think I’m going to hurt you if I try and get your hands to your foot.” ‘Cause he’s quite, he’s not as flexible, but we do do the little legs where you just try and get him to roll on his back to try and get him to assist, get him on his tummy. But we just, I’m just trying everything to get them moving and being on the floor. There has been days where I feel like I’m not stimulating them enough.
[22:15 – 22:36]
Zoe Brown: And then I go to the baby sensory classes, which happened last week, Friday for the first time. And I’m like, “Oh my goodness, this is very overstimulating.” It was just 30 minutes and we were done and we all walked out of there and we’re like, “Okay, fresh air.”
Meg Faure: It is very overstimulating. And you know, it’s incredible because little ones actually need less than we actually think that they do. You know, just being alive in the world is often enough. But I love the fact that you’ve joined a baby sensory class because, you know, and it’s so interesting. A lot of moms as an OT, moms will ask me, you know, “When must they join classes? Must we have like three classes a week? How does it work?”
[22:36 – 23:14]
Meg Faure: And I always say to moms, you know, joining baby classes, whether it’s baby sensory or baby music or baby signing classes, I mean, there’s a myriad of classes, pick one in the first year of life, because you don’t want to overschedule them. And you actually express that. And then the other thing is that in some respects, it’s actually more for you than it is for them. And that’s because, you know, it’s that connection with other moms, actually just getting yourself out. And also we often make our first friends in the class, you know, baby friends in the class, classes like that. I mean, the first friends are usually from my antenatal class, if we do a live class. But certainly our baby sensory classes do provide us with friends, other moms who are going through the same stuff. Did you find that?
[23:14 – 23:44]
Zoe Brown: We, it was one of those classes, it was a lot of ladies, and there was a lot happening. A lot of babies, I was the only twin mom there. But what I did find, I think maybe with Australians, they maybe need a few classes to get familiar with the faces before they really warm up. I got chatting to the mom next to me, but it was we kind of like dived into the class. And then when it was done, everyone kind of like packed up and left. So I’m still waiting for the moms that want to be like, “Hey, let’s go for coffee afterwards,” or just I’m waiting for that social aspect. But it was the class was predominantly baby focused. It was pretty much just focusing on the little ones.
[23:44 – 24:12]
Meg Faure: Okay, yeah. So I mean, a couple of things also there is, I mean, I found I experimented with classes, I didn’t stick with the class that I necessarily started with, and particularly with my third baby, who was more sensitive. I took her to two classes that were so overwhelming that I just walked out and never went back. And then I found one that was a little bit more, you know, kind of muted, slower, there was time for tea with moms, you know. So don’t be shy to shop around and find the match for you and your little ones, because it’s not always the first one. Tasha, what do you think?
[24:12 – 25:12]
Tasha Perreard: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I know in Cape Town, we’re absolutely saturated with so many different classes and swimming classes and baby massage classes. And I guess it’s like with any group, you know, any antenatal group or any kind of class, you just got to find your people. And yeah, I mean, you’ve got to shop around and see what else there is. I mean, I think it’s such a huge, I mean, you are going through such a huge change. I mean, back to like birthing, you know, babies in a foreign country without your family, then moving cities. I mean, that in itself, it’s such a massive change. I mean, that, you know, and then the fact that you kind of having to make friends and looking after babies. And so I think, yeah, I think you just need to be kind to yourself and you’ll find your people, you know, and just because you don’t have them now doesn’t mean that you might not find them in a few months time. And also babies change so quickly, you know, like at six months before you know it, you’re going to be pushing your baby on a swing in the park and you’re going to look over and there’s going to be another mom there and then you might meet your person there, you know. So yeah, there’s so many activities you can do. I think it’s just, and I think also like being winter, it’s kind of cold and it’s just a, probably, yeah, I can imagine it does feel quite lonely, but yeah, keep putting yourself out there.
[25:12 – 25:39]
Zoe Brown: I think also just for myself, I mean, I love being outside. I love going for walks, but there are just some days where it’s just a bit too windy and I’m like, “It’s not worth taking the boys out for a walk in this weather.” But I mean, winter, we’ve got about, if we’re going with how seasons typically are, we’ve got one more bad month ahead of us in terms of cold, wet, rainy weather. Then I’m optimistic things will also just change.
[25:39 – 26:15]
Meg Faure: Yeah, yeah. And you also, you know, I think in early parenting, this is something that people don’t always take account of is that the drudgery of it and the isolation of those early months start to take their toll after a few months. It’s like, “Oh my goodness,” you know? And so, I mean, I think as Tasha says, you do need to be gentle with yourself. And I think often as moms, we’re not, we have high expectations, not only of our babies, but also of ourselves as well to kind of bounce back, get our bodies back, maintain a home, make sure that our kids are, all the boxes are ticked and it’s tiring. So yeah, I think it is important to take care of yourself as well.
[26:15 – 26:37]
Tasha Perreard: And you know, I mean, a lot of moms go back to work at four months, five months. And I mean, a lot of moms are desperate to go back at that time because they think “I’ve been at home now for four months and I’m actually quite lonely.” You know, that’s why people love going to the office, having a cup of coffee with their colleagues. And you can understand why, because it’s, it’s, yeah, it all kind of accumulates after a while. So yeah, the fact that again, you are kind of, yeah, you don’t have a huge support at the moment. So it’s, yeah, you kind of, you’re needing that community, which will definitely come.
[26:37 – 26:38]
Meg Faure: Yeah, it will.
[26:38 – 26:54]
Meg Faure: So are there any other questions and things that have been burning in your mind over the last couple of weeks?
Zoe Brown: I think, you know, with us, when we made the move, we kind of like sold everything the first time we moved and we started fresh, which was very fun and exciting, but both myself and my husband, we have a very minimalist approach to how we like our life to be, our furniture. And I’m just worried I don’t have enough toys for the kids.
[26:54 – 27:07]
Zoe Brown: Like I feel, you know, that’s my approach, but I know kids are different, but is it something I need to worry about yet? Because I walked through the stores the other day and there’s nothing really that’s age appropriate for them just yet. So I was like, “well, you know, I put some peas in a Ziploc bag with some water the other day and we did tummy time with that on the floor between the two of them.” So I’m trying to be creative without making the house feel cluttered.
[27:07 – 28:20]
Meg Faure: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that’s such a good question. I think there are a couple of things we go overboard with. The one is cute clothes and small shoes, which babies outgrow so quickly that I would not waste money on it. And the other one is toys that tend to be expensive. The more expensive a toy, generally, the shorter the lifespan of its use with children. They just get bored of it. And often those toys have got something electrical in them, something that does half the work for them and kids actually outgrow those very quickly. So I always say that I love the Bs, which are boxes, books, bubbles, balls and blocks. Those are my five Bs. And they are the cheapest things that you can find as well. At this age, the things that I probably would do is I’d probably get a little bit of some bubbles for them to watch when you blow bubbles, because they love that. Balls are also fabulous for this age because you can roll them towards them and roll them away and they can kind of handle them. And then books, obviously, lots of talking and reading to them. Those are kind of the things I would not be focusing in on a lot of toys at this stage. I would really keep it super simple. I think, you know, giving them, you know, the tummy time and then just floor time. Those are the things that we really want.
[28:20 – 29:21]
Meg Faure: And you know, we spoke about it last time that tummy time becomes less important once they’re rolling from tummy to back, because they then, which they’re showing you that they’ve activated their back muscles. So tummy time is more around floor time now, not so much around tummy time. Maybe a little mobile would be something that I would recommend. And that’s going to be those super cheap metal frames just with a couple of little danglies hanging off them. And under those, they tend to start to reach or even to kick those things. And those are really good for both eye-hand coordination and for their tummy muscles with kicking. So I would probably only go as far as that. I wouldn’t really be focusing deeply on getting them all the fancy toys at this stage. You probably are doing more than enough with them. And you know, the most important wiring that happens at this age is sensory and emotional. And the emotional engagement they’re going to get from each other, which is the benefit of being a twin, is that there’s always that social. And then the sensory is doing something like a baby massage, which requires nothing. Or setting up, like I love the fact that you put frozen peas into a Ziploc bag. I mean, that is amazing because they get to feel cold then. And it’s a wonderful thing.
[29:21 – 29:57]
Meg Faure: And also inside the ParentSense app, and I was actually just looking at their age now, there’s things like toy floats and noisy socks, little socks with bells on them. And that’s actually a very nice idea because if you get a little pair of socks with a little bell on it, or a little rattle in it, when they move their feet, it makes a noise. So that’s a nice one for this week. And another nice one is a rice rattle, which is just an empty plastic bottle filled with rice that they can just shake. So those are all activities that we actually got inside their week in the ParentSense app this week. And I would just do that. I would just focus in on that ParentSense app activity each week. And you’ll cover off stimulation more than enough with those activities.
[29:57 – 29:58]
Zoe Brown: Oh, good to know. Thank you.
[29:58 – 30:26]
Zoe Brown: I do have bubbles. We had bubbles. I bought some bubbles last week. And yeah, they love kicking. They realised we’ve got in their bedroom, there’s this little mat play gym. And there’s a little bee that hangs. So it makes a noise whenever it gets shaken. And they’ve realised that if they kick the pole, the bee moves. And it’s just the funniest thing. So when we get them dressed in the evenings after bath time, we sit on the floor and we do it there. So then they’ll kick. And we couldn’t understand why these babies are kicking so much because they’re looking at the bee thinking if they kick, the bee will move. And then we realise, “hang on, they’re trying to kick the pole.”
[30:26 – 31:30]
Meg Faure: And aren’t their brains absolutely incredible? Because this is the age where cause and effect starts to take place, which is why babies can start to actually, you know, cry just to call you back because they know that if they do something, then you’ll come back. And I have a colleague in Cape Town called Professor Mark Tomlinson, and he’s a professor in baby development, really. He’s a psychologist, but he focusses on baby development. And he does a series of lectures on babies as little scientists. And actually Zoe, one of the podcasts, if you go back and you search in Sense by Meg Faure, and you look for the podcast with Dr. Mark Tomlinson, it’s an incredible episode on brain development. But the fact that they’ve worked out that they can kick the side of something that’s nowhere near the bee really. And that the bee makes a noise. I mean, that just shows their little geniuses. It’s absolutely incredible. Really, really awesome.
Zoe Brown: We think it’s very cute. We’re like sending the family little videos because they want all the videos. We’re like, “okay, we’ll send you videos.” They’re kicking.
Meg Faure: That’s wonderful. Wonderful.
[31:30 – 31:40]
Meg Faure: Well, it’s been wonderful to catch up again. I really miss these chats in the weeks that we don’t do them. And yeah, hang in there, Zoe. You’re at the rock face, but you’re doing an incredible job. You’re an awesome mom.
[31:40 – 31:45]
Zoe Brown: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you to the both of you. I really appreciate it. So lovely to catch up.
[31:45 – 31:49]
Tasha Perreard: Thanks, Tasha.
Meg Faure: Thanks, Zoe. We’ll chat again.
Tasha Perreard: Bye.
[31:49 – 31:50]
Meg Faure: Thanks, Tasha.
[31:50 – 31:53]
Tasha Perreard: Yeah, I feel like we can carry on talking for ages and ages.
[31:53 – 31:57]
Meg Faure: Yeah, me too. Excellent. Thanks, everyone. See you next time.
[31:57 – 31:59]
Tasha Perreard: Thanks so much. Bye.
[31:59 – 32:11]
Announcer: Thanks to everyone who joined us. We will see you the same time next week. Until then download ParentSense app and take the guesswork out of parenting.
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